Notice to Newbies

Question:

I’m a lurker too. I have learned who to ignore. It’s funny that the poster who suggested Sci/med was loaded with info has the 1st 26 posts there. A little self- promo perhaps? It’s also funny that wading thru the garbage means ignore most of the people from sci/med. This is a good place. out of hiding……. Cabin Man

Response:

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 06:15 +0100 (BST), a…@veloceraptor.free-online.co.uk (Alan), in message ID <memo.20050913061521.10…@veloceraptor.free-online.co.uk>, in the newsgroup alt.support.hepatitis-c wrote: >When will you get it Paul? I can see that the Yanks are dumbed down, but you >must be the only English guy I know who is not looking at America in horror. Are >you alive at all or are you perpetually stoned?

I haven’t been stoned since the mid 80s when I made the break from drugs Alan. As for the issue about "moderated" information, I was merely pointing someone that way who had requested it.  Personally, I prefer to do my own self-moderating. If you knew me, you would eventually realise that you have got me all wrong.  I am able to think outside the box on many issues as I realise you can too.  The fact that I choose to keep much of that thinking to myself doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.  Apart from that, people might think I’m nuts  :-) — Paul Use the reply by email facility in your newsreader to send email

Response:

Alan,   That’s the first thing I straightened out, sir. cj  Peace, Harmony, Eat to Live ………………. previously stated ……………………… "Alan" <a…@veloceraptor.free-online.co.uk> wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> (cactus jammies) wrote: >> Please exuse false address, folks.””””””””””’ >> cactus jammies >> ”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””” alan sayd > You’re replying to a message from some newsgroup called > sci.med.support.hepititis and you tell us it is straightened out? > I think you need to fix it some more. > Alan

Response:

In article <nllci1luf31ud7mj1raj8ncrvonukjm…@4ax.com>, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -dontspa…@westgreen.freeserve.co.uk (Paul) wrote: > On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 13:04:00 -0400, "Rock" <nos…@nospam.com>, in > message ID <-6ednZN7pYmD_rneRVn…@wideopenwest.com>, in the newsgroup > alt.support.hepatitis-c wrote: > >I’m one of the newbies you would be referring to. I have been getting some > >information here by reading posts. But as you say there is a load of other > >crap on here and I am looking for something like a forum for HEP c that is > >monitored to keep the junk out. Anyone know of any message board/forums out > >there? I do appreciate all the good posts and responses here though and have > >picked up a fair amount of info. > www.delphiforums.com > Loads of moderated hep-c boards there and live chatrooms.  You will > need to register but it’s free if you want an account without extras. > — > Paul

Hey, you could just give lectures on setting up kill-files like you used to instead. Hey let me help. You just right click on a name and add to kill-file. Then when somebody changes their name, you do it all over again, as nauseum. Finally you have some many fingers in your ears trying to silence the voices, and so many hands over your eyes so that you can’t reality, and so many hands over your mouths stopping you from telling the truth that you become like frightened little rabbits and then they herd you into a Superdome and let you starve to death, because you were too stupid to walk out of a city yourselves. When will you get it Paul? I can see that the Yanks are dumbed down, but you must be the only English guy I know who is not looking at America in horror. Are you alive at all or are you perpetually stoned? Here let me help you out: http://www.hurricanekatrinasucked.com/ http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article311818.ece http://www.exilemm.com/e-sub-ussr1.shtml http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/official_culture.htm That last one says it all. http://www.progressiveindependent.com/shalom/katrina/katrinaphotos.htm http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/08/31/102900.php Alan http://veloceraptor.blogspot.com/ http://theoriginalfirebird.blogspot.com/ http://lordcerneabbastoo.blogspot.com/ http://www.stopwar.org.uk/ http://www.700women.org/

Response:

In article <%zsVe.168706$wr.59866@clgrps12>, cactusjamm…@jerichobush.net (cactus jammies) wrote: > Please exuse false address, folks. Somehow vestigages of the HellKern worm > and entrails switched my IDs around.  No part of my doing.  But I > straightened that out when I returned from my time outs and etc. > cactus jammies > ”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””” > "sci.med.support.hepititis" <bob@bigR> wrote in message

You’re replying to a message from some newsgroup called sci.med.support.hepititis and you tell us it is straightened out? I think you need to fix it some more. Alan  "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart’s desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H.L. Mencken (1880 – 1956) http://www.veloceraptor.free-online.co.uk/mylinks.html http://veloceraptor.blogspot.com/ http://theoriginalfirebird.blogspot.com/ http://lordcerneabbastoo.blogspot.com/ http://www.stopwar.org.uk/ http://www.700women.org/

Response:

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 13:04:00 -0400, "Rock" <nos…@nospam.com>, in message ID <-6ednZN7pYmD_rneRVn…@wideopenwest.com>, in the newsgroup alt.support.hepatitis-c wrote: >I’m one of the newbies you would be referring to. I have been getting some >information here by reading posts. But as you say there is a load of other >crap on here and I am looking for something like a forum for HEP c that is >monitored to keep the junk out. Anyone know of any message board/forums out >there? I do appreciate all the good posts and responses here though and have >picked up a fair amount of info.

www.delphiforums.com Loads of moderated hep-c boards there and live chatrooms.  You will need to register but it’s free if you want an account without extras. — Paul Use the reply by email facility in your newsreader to send email

Response:

Please exuse false address, folks. Somehow vestigages of the HellKern worm and entrails switched my IDs around.  No part of my doing.  But I straightened that out when I returned from my time outs and etc. cactus jammies ”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””” "sci.med.support.hepititis" <bob@bigR> wrote in message

news:9brVe.226802$9A2.145296@edtnps89… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Two weeks post tx feeliing great sorry not in touch til now.  Away for a > while, etc. etc. etc. > Hi Kathy, hi all! > Cactus Jammies in the Great White North! > (now waiting patiently for results of PCR & VL post 48 week tx.  will > advise all some time nest week.  Am planning a diatribe on surviving the > treatments and the post treatments, too!)  Need volunteers, leave your > farts at the door dudes.  and dudettes.  Snarfle snarfle snarfle. > Question:  What sound does Uranus make?  (courtesy of Wayne’s World) > schwwwinn…ng! > ”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””’ ”””””””’ > …. >> Still wondering about Jammies.  I thinks he’s ok, But I’m missing his >> posts.  He will be waiting now for the results of his post-tx viral load. >> Kathy in Montana >> On the downhill side of 48 weeks

Response:

Hey Randy if you like this wading thing, go rent a copy of the DVD "Sin City"  wow! CJ ”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””’ ”””””’ "Randy Thomas" <HotandHumid…@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:26280-4325DFC3-810@storefull-3356.bay.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> in other words, wade thru the shit to get the goodies! Its a good place. > Its all good…..

Response:

Two weeks post tx feeliing great sorry not in touch til now.  Away for a while, etc. etc. etc. Hi Kathy, hi all! Cactus Jammies in the Great White North! (now waiting patiently for results of PCR & VL post 48 week tx.  will advise all some time nest week.  Am planning a diatribe on surviving the treatments and the post treatments, too!)  Need volunteers, leave your farts at the door dudes.  and dudettes.  Snarfle snarfle snarfle. Question:  What sound does Uranus make?  (courtesy of Wayne’s World) schwwwinn…ng! ”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””’ ”””””””’ …. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Still wondering about Jammies.  I thinks he’s ok, But I’m missing his > posts.  He will be waiting now for the results of his post-tx viral load. > Kathy in Montana > On the downhill side of 48 weeks

Response:

Hey there Cody mon! "In the shop" is also my jargon for time outs to focus on the final two weeks of tx and kick the pixx out of the Beast of the long firey tounge and wicked wings, once and for all!   The computer was actually in Lock Down. Also to some other string, in reply, "Olive Oyl" Don’t bother trying to latch on to that last statement as it means nothing but as a personal reference to double lateral thought.  It is and was and shall evermore be a sample of Diatribal Babylonian. snarfle snarfle Cactus Jammies ”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””’ ””””””””””””””””””” "MCody" <nos…@nospam.comedunetcita> wrote in message

news:GneVe.96287$US.37786@news.ono.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If it’s been longer than one day, it’s in the wrong shop. > Cody > <elmoemer…@webtv.net> wrote >> CJ’s computer is still in the ’shop’. >> Elmo

Response:

Rock, If you ask a question you will get an information tidal wave. We are all interested in helping others with this dreadful disease. In the meantime though, some need an outlet to vent (thru bullshit) their pain and suffering. Wheat does come with some chaff you know! Oh, I almost forgot. Welcome!!!!! Shawn "Rock" <nos…@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:-6ednZN7pYmD_rneRVn-sw@wideopenwest.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "kjoh" <kjohyay…@nospamyahoo.com> wrote in message > news:c04de449fecf6b646e36688208935e87@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com… >> A quick note to any new folks who might be lurking here looking for >> information or support:  there has been a tremendous amount of irrelevant >> and insulting garbage posted here in the last few days.  Please don’t be >> put off by it – it isnt always like this.  The idiot posters tend to ebb >> and flow like a filthy tide.  Stay with us, read back through the old >> posts. >> Welcome back Mags.  Go for it. >> Still wondering about Jammies.  I thinks he’s ok, But I’m missing his >> posts.  He will be waiting now for the results of his post-tx viral load. >> Kathy in Montana >> On the downhill side of 48 weeks > I’m one of the newbies you would be referring to. I have been getting some > information here by reading posts. But as you say there is a load of other > crap on here and I am looking for something like a forum for HEP c that is > monitored to keep the junk out. Anyone know of any message board/forums > out > there? I do appreciate all the good posts and responses here though and > have > picked up a fair amount of info.

Response:

"Shawn" <m…@privacy.net> wrote in message news:VDlVe.7312$8h6.43@trnddc09… > Rock, If you ask a question you will get an information tidal wave. We are > all interested in helping others with this dreadful disease. In the meantime > though, some need an outlet to vent (thru bullshit) their pain and > suffering. Wheat does come with some chaff you know! > Oh, I almost forgot. Welcome!!!!!

I agree with the general intent but you and I both know that not all of the BS comes from people "in pain".  No worries, it may not be "all good" but it’s worth the trouble. Kissing frogs and all that. AG

Response:

CJ’s computer is still in the ’shop’.   Elmo http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum

Response:

If it’s been longer than one day, it’s in the wrong shop. Cody <elmoemer…@webtv.net> wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> CJ’s computer is still in the ’shop’. > Elmo

Response:

In article <GneVe.96287$US.37…@news.ono.com>, nos…@nospam.comedunetcita (MCody) wrote: > If it’s been longer than one day, it’s in the wrong shop. > Cody

Maybe it is an X-tian shop and, just like Condi, they are waiting for god to come and fix it? Rev. Alan of The Church of Nemesis http://www.veloceraptor.free-online.co.uk/protector.html http://veloceraptor.blogspot.com/ http://theoriginalfirebird.blogspot.com/ http://lordcerneabbastoo.blogspot.com/ http://www.stopwar.org.uk/ http://www.700women.org/

Response:

"Alan" <a…@veloceraptor.free-online.co.uk> wrote in message

news:memo.20050912133743.804A@veloceraptor.free-online.co.uk… > In article <GneVe.96287$US.37…@news.ono.com>, > nos…@nospam.comedunetcita > (MCody) wrote: >> If it’s been longer than one day, it’s in the wrong shop. >> Cody > Maybe it is an X-tian shop and, just like Condi, they are waiting for god > to > come and fix it?

Waiting for Godot … Cody – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Rev. Alan of The Church of Nemesis > http://www.veloceraptor.free-online.co.uk/protector.html > http://veloceraptor.blogspot.com/ > http://theoriginalfirebird.blogspot.com/ > http://lordcerneabbastoo.blogspot.com/ > http://www.stopwar.org.uk/ > http://www.700women.org/

Response:

in other words, wade thru the shit to get the goodies! Its a good place. Its all good…..

Response:

In article <JL2Ve.89130$dr.65…@news.ono.com>, nos…@nospam.comedunetcita – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(MCody) wrote: > "kjoh" <kjohyay…@nospamyahoo.com> wrote > >A quick note to any new folks who might be lurking here looking for > > information or support:  there has been a tremendous amount of irrelevant > > and insulting garbage posted here in the last few days.  Please don’t be > > put off by it – it isnt always like this.  The idiot posters tend to ebb > > and flow like a filthy tide.  Stay with us, read back through the old > > posts. > > Kathy in Montana > > On the downhill side of 48 weeks > Do you even realize that you have just done what you so self righteously > condemn? > Cody

"Surely thou will slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain. Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies." (Psalms 139:19-22) Comment A message of hate from the, supposed, inspired words of God against anyone who takes God’s name in vain or who goes against God. Faith in one’s belief produces a barrier to further investigation. Religious groups that differ in beliefs from other societies cannot see past their own barriers. When hate enters into the prison of their beliefs, the seeds for violence to act out against other societies come to full bloom. http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible5.htm Rev. Alan of The Church of Nemesis http://www.veloceraptor.free-online.co.uk/science.html http://veloceraptor.blogspot.com/ http://theoriginalfirebird.blogspot.com/ http://lordcerneabbastoo.blogspot.com/ http://www.stopwar.org.uk/ http://www.700women.org/

Response:

In article <11i8pu178iho…@corp.supernews.com>, sourd…@yahoo.com (Russ Tanner) wrote: > Hey Kathy, good luck and good to hear your getting this treatment done. Yea, > there are some sick pathetic people around here. They always made a handy > target for my riba rage, hahaha…. > take care > Russ

Hell, you’ve had that Riba Rage for so long now it just ain’t true. When will you just admit that you are simply full of rage? Alan http://veloceraptor.blogspot.com/ http://theoriginalfirebird.blogspot.com/ http://lordcerneabbastoo.blogspot.com/ http://www.stopwar.org.uk/ http://www.700women.org/

Response:

"kjoh" <kjohyay…@nospamyahoo.com> wrote >A quick note to any new folks who might be lurking here looking for > information or support:  there has been a tremendous amount of irrelevant > and insulting garbage posted here in the last few days.  Please don’t be > put off by it – it isnt always like this.  The idiot posters tend to ebb > and flow like a filthy tide.  Stay with us, read back through the old > posts. > Kathy in Montana > On the downhill side of 48 weeks

Do you even realize that you have just done what you so self righteously condemn? Cody

Response:

A quick note to any new folks who might be lurking here looking for information or support:  there has been a tremendous amount of irrelevant and insulting garbage posted here in the last few days.  Please don’t be put off by it – it isnt always like this.  The idiot posters tend to ebb and flow like a filthy tide.  Stay with us, read back through the old posts. Welcome back Mags.  Go for it. Still wondering about Jammies.  I thinks he’s ok, But I’m missing his posts.  He will be waiting now for the results of his post-tx viral load. Kathy in Montana On the downhill side of 48 weeks

Response:

"kjoh" <kjohyay…@nospamyahoo.com> wrote in message

news:c04de449fecf6b646e36688208935e87@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com… > A quick note to any new folks who might be lurking here looking for > information or support:  there has been a tremendous amount of irrelevant > and insulting garbage posted here in the last few days.  Please don’t be > put off by it – it isnt always like this.  The idiot posters tend to ebb > and flow like a filthy tide.  Stay with us, read back through the old > posts. > Welcome back Mags.  Go for it. > Still wondering about Jammies.  I thinks he’s ok, But I’m missing his > posts.  He will be waiting now for the results of his post-tx viral load. > Kathy in Montana > On the downhill side of 48 weeks

I’m one of the newbies you would be referring to. I have been getting some information here by reading posts. But as you say there is a load of other crap on here and I am looking for something like a forum for HEP c that is monitored to keep the junk out. Anyone know of any message board/forums out there? I do appreciate all the good posts and responses here though and have picked up a fair amount of info.

Response:

Hey Kathy, good luck and good to hear your getting this treatment done. Yea, there are some sick pathetic people around here. They always made a handy target for my riba rage, hahaha…. take care Russ "kjoh" <kjohyay…@nospamyahoo.com> wrote in message

news:c04de449fecf6b646e36688208935e87@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->A quick note to any new folks who might be lurking here looking for > information or support:  there has been a tremendous amount of irrelevant > and insulting garbage posted here in the last few days.  Please don’t be > put off by it – it isnt always like this.  The idiot posters tend to ebb > and flow like a filthy tide.  Stay with us, read back through the old > posts. > Welcome back Mags.  Go for it. > Still wondering about Jammies.  I thinks he’s ok, But I’m missing his > posts.  He will be waiting now for the results of his post-tx viral load. > Kathy in Montana > On the downhill side of 48 weeks

Response:

In article <c04de449fecf6b646e36688208935…@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com>, kjohyay…@nospamyahoo.com (kjoh) wrote: > A quick note to any new folks who might be lurking here looking for > information or support:  there has been a tremendous amount of irrelevant > and insulting garbage posted here in the last few days.  Please don’t be > put off by it – it isnt always like this.  The idiot posters tend to ebb > and flow like a filthy tide.  Stay with us, read back through the old > posts.

Yes, you are right, but there has been much better stuff posted in sc.med.diseases.hepatitis yaknow. > Welcome back Mags.  Go for it. > Still wondering about Jammies.  I thinks he’s ok, But I’m missing his > posts.  He will be waiting now for the results of his post-tx viral load.

Oh don’t say he met with Nemesis too? I was still wondering about Crowdonkey, who called us hepatitis sufferers "Yeller" so many times. I wonder if he will be in any more to entertain us with rich man in the swamp stories? Alan http://veloceraptor.blogspot.com/ http://theoriginalfirebird.blogspot.com/ http://lordcerneabbastoo.blogspot.com/ http://www.stopwar.org.uk/ http://www.700women.org/ Voodoo Child         Well, I stand up next to a mountain And I chop it down with the edge of my hand Yeah Well, I stand up next to a mountain And I chop it down with the edge of my hand Well, I pick up all the pieces and make an island Might even raise a little sand Yeah

Update Part 2

Question:

I went Friday and had an hours worth of rib and lung xrays.  Either she was having trouble getting the shot she wanted or she was taking tons of views of my ribs.  The blood vampire took lots of blood and I left with a nice bruise on my inner arm.  At least she hit the vein on the first try! Now…for the good (I think) news.  The increase in the steroids has helped the pain.  My rheumy had said if the pain was inflamitory in nature, the increase in steroids would ease the pain.  So now that the pain has eased….what does that mean?  Can anything besides the RA, like in the abdomen – kidneys, gallbladder, bowel, etc. be inflamatory?  I still don’t have any appetite despite being on almost 40 mgs of medrol a day.  And if I do eat, I can expect a few hours of increased pain.  So….I will just wait till Monday and see whats what.  I’m even sleeping a lot on these steroids. Not the rush to clean like I usually get.  Maybe tomorrow…… — Cyberhugs, DianeW

Response:

sounds like you’ve finally gotten the attention focused that you’ve deserved.  it is about time!   yes, diane.  internat organs, like kidneys, bowels . . etc., even the heart, can become inflamed by various causes. bacterial or viral infections can cause these kinds of inflamations, (like hepititis can inflame the liver, for instance) and/or there can be other causes.  now, your doctors have to figure what caused this.  i’m so glad and relieved to see that this is finally being taken seriously for you.  you poor thing, you’ve been through the wringer, just trying to get them on the same page with you.  forget taking care of the house, diane.  take good care of you. kate

I went Friday and had an hours worth of rib and lung xrays.  Either she was having trouble getting the shot she wanted or she was taking tons of views of my ribs.  The blood vampire took lots of blood and I left with a nice bruise on my inner arm.  At least she hit the vein on the first try! Now…for the good (I think) news.  The increase in the steroids has helped the pain.  My rheumy had said if the pain was inflamitory in nature, the increase in steroids would ease the pain.  So now that the pain has eased….what does that mean?  Can anything besides the RA, like in the abdomen – kidneys, gallbladder, bowel, etc. be inflamatory?

 I still don’t – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – have any appetite despite being on almost 40 mgs of medrol a day.  And if I do eat, I can expect a few hours of increased pain.  So….I will just wait till Monday and see whats what.  I’m even sleeping a lot on these steroids. Not the rush to clean like I usually get.  Maybe tomorrow…… — Cyberhugs, DianeW

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I went Friday and had an hours worth of rib and lung xrays.  Either she was having trouble getting the shot she wanted or she was taking tons of views of my ribs.  The blood vampire took lots of blood and I left with a nice bruise on my inner arm.  At least she hit the vein on the first try! Now…for the good (I think) news.  The increase in the steroids has helped the pain.  My rheumy had said if the pain was inflamitory in nature, the increase in steroids would ease the pain.  So now that the pain has eased….what does that mean?  Can anything besides the RA, like in the abdomen – kidneys, gallbladder, bowel, etc. be inflamatory?  I still don’t have any appetite despite being on almost 40 mgs of medrol a day.  And if I do eat, I can expect a few hours of increased pain.  So….I will just wait till Monday and see whats what.  I’m even sleeping a lot on these steroids. Not the rush to clean like I usually get.  Maybe tomorrow…… — Cyberhugs, DianeW

Diane, this all reminds me……  After I had the ERCP and sphincterotomy, and all of the shit was "behind" be, I developed this lousy rib pain again.  I went to the biliary specialist thinking that Oh shit, here we go again, and maybe I do need to have my gall bladder removed after all.  He poked and prodded, and said that there is nothing wrong with my gb.  He suspected some kind of rib or connective tissue inflammation, and I should consult with my RD.  So I did.  Turns out that was the first of my five broken ribs.  Amazing.  I totally forgot about this till now.  I don’t know exactly why I’m relating this, other than ….. Shit, I dunno.  It’s all so interconnected and confusing. I really hope you feel better soon.  You’re long overdue. — Di "May all your weeds be wildflowers." Anonymous dabell at optonline dot net www.pbase.com/di www.loveyourmother.homestead.com http://bensonpolymeric.com/folding/start.html

Response:

Imuran

Question:

You might want to talk to your doctor about starting out with a smaller dose & working up more slowly.  I’m very sensitive to meds, & my rheumy began me on Imuran at 1/2 of a 50 mg pill every other day.  Even that small amount proved to be too much, so the next trial, I started at 1/4 of 50 mg every other day & worked up to 1/4 every day. Now I’m off of it again because I’ve been diagnosed with asthma too (along with the 6 diagnoses I already have <g> We’ve got to keep a sense of humor with this!), & they’re starting me on an inhaler.  But once that settles down, I’m hoping to retry it because I’ve already had unsuccessful trials of Plaquenil & methotrexate. ‘Hope this helps! Sue

Response:

Hi Lil I had the same reaction with imuran and sick to my stomach too. I couldn’t take plaquinil tried every does imaginable. some can some can’t. I hope you find something that helps. Cindy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lil wrote: > I have been recently started on Imuran (just over a week) and wonder if > others have had side effects from this.  Have been on Plaquinil for 7 > years and last year was on Methytrexate for 6 months but it was one of > those "cure is worse than the disease" drugs with me.  I started taking > 50mg of the Imuran at breakfast and 100mg at evening meal but in the > last few days I get wobbly feeling and really want to lie down (not > always possible) by 3 to 4pm.  Yesterday I took the whole 150mg with the > evening meal and in about 1 or so, felt quite shakey and whoozy (had a > function to go to in the afternoon and didn’t want to get wobbly > there).  Plus I wasn’t all that keen on getting up this am.  Today I am > considering taking the whole dose at bedtime, but wonder if it will > disturb by sleep (or zonk me out to sleep better?)  Is this common?  It > also speeds up my intestines but I can deal with that okay for now and > my mouth tasted like a bear pit lots, but that I guess is passable as > well. > Any input would be appreciated. > Lil

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I have been recently started on Imuran (just over a week) and wonder if others have had side effects from this.  Have been on Plaquinil for 7 years and last year was on Methytrexate for 6 months but it was one of those "cure is worse than the disease" drugs with me.  I started taking 50mg of the Imuran at breakfast and 100mg at evening meal but in the last few days I get wobbly feeling and really want to lie down (not always possible) by 3 to 4pm.  Yesterday I took the whole 150mg with the evening meal and in about 1 or so, felt quite shakey and whoozy (had a function to go to in the afternoon and didn’t want to get wobbly there).  Plus I wasn’t all that keen on getting up this am.  Today I am considering taking the whole dose at bedtime, but wonder if it will disturb by sleep (or zonk me out to sleep better?)  Is this common?  It also speeds up my intestines but I can deal with that okay for now and my mouth tasted like a bear pit lots, but that I guess is passable as well. Any input would be appreciated. Lil

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I had been taking Imuran for the last three years.  I just got removed from it as my liver is starting to show some effects from a different medicine.  My biggest problem with the Imuran was that it made the world seem a little gray.  I also had a bit of hair fall-out, and gained some chin hair. Otherwise, I didn’t have much trouble with it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lil wrote: > I have been recently started on Imuran (just over a week) and wonder if > others have had side effects from this.  Have been on Plaquinil for 7 > years and last year was on Methytrexate for 6 months but it was one of > those "cure is worse than the disease" drugs with me.  I started taking > 50mg of the Imuran at breakfast and 100mg at evening meal but in the > last few days I get wobbly feeling and really want to lie down (not > always possible) by 3 to 4pm.  Yesterday I took the whole 150mg with the > evening meal and in about 1 or so, felt quite shakey and whoozy (had a > function to go to in the afternoon and didn’t want to get wobbly > there).  Plus I wasn’t all that keen on getting up this am.  Today I am > considering taking the whole dose at bedtime, but wonder if it will > disturb by sleep (or zonk me out to sleep better?)  Is this common?  It > also speeds up my intestines but I can deal with that okay for now and > my mouth tasted like a bear pit lots, but that I guess is passable as > well. > Any input would be appreciated. > Lil

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Let your doctor know what is going on, I felt the same way and ended up vomiting blood and really getting ill because I couldn’t tolerate it.  Better safe than sorry Laura

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Recently I switched from plaquenil to imuran, at 50 mg morning and evening. It didn’t help and in fact just made me feel bad and have more joint pain and sleep problems.  After one month my rheumy stopped the imuran and within a week or even less I began to feel better.  Now after two weeks I feel better than I have for months.  Currently I am taking methotrexate and prednisone of MCTD.  I think the next thing for me, depending on my tests, will be cellcept, if the insurance company will go for it.   If any one has any info on cellcept and its benefits and side effects I’d like to hear about it.

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When you say "the world seemed gray" do you mean visually clouded, or mentally foggy?  I took the whole dose at bedtime last night and certainly didn’t feel too bright this am….luckily have the day off.  Went to take my Rx I take before breakfast (to protect stomach) and instead put apron on over nightgown (in same vicinity), then thought what on earth am I doing….took apron off and tookRx, then got cereal bowl out and took out cat food container which is in adjacent cupboard to cereal……thought Boy, I’m sure going to have a great day!  But after eating and a long hot shower, do feel clearer, but still have a dull headache.  I did, on the other hand, have a very busy weekend, so maybe just need the old battery recharged. Lil – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Susan Parry Whelchel wrote: > I had been taking Imuran for the last three years.  I just got > removed from it as my liver is starting to show some effects > from a different medicine.  My biggest problem with the > Imuran was that it made the world seem a little gray.  I > also had a bit of hair fall-out, and gained some chin hair. > Otherwise, I didn’t have much trouble with it. > Lil wrote: > > I have been recently started on Imuran (just over a week) and wonder if > > others have had side effects from this.  Have been on Plaquinil for 7 > > years and last year was on Methytrexate for 6 months but it was one of > > those "cure is worse than the disease" drugs with me.  I started taking > > 50mg of the Imuran at breakfast and 100mg at evening meal but in the > > last few days I get wobbly feeling and really want to lie down (not > > always possible) by 3 to 4pm.  Yesterday I took the whole 150mg with the > > evening meal and in about 1 or so, felt quite shakey and whoozy (had a > > function to go to in the afternoon and didn’t want to get wobbly > > there).  Plus I wasn’t all that keen on getting up this am.  Today I am > > considering taking the whole dose at bedtime, but wonder if it will > > disturb by sleep (or zonk me out to sleep better?)  Is this common?  It > > also speeds up my intestines but I can deal with that okay for now and > > my mouth tasted like a bear pit lots, but that I guess is passable as > > well. > > Any input would be appreciated. > > Lil

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Let it out, Cindi…you have lots of support here, even if it’s only a soft shoulder and a sympathetic ear (I’m not a lupie).  You’ll find many who are willing to offer their experiences and advice, as well as support whenever you feel the need.  ;) Kat – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cindi Ward wrote: > It has helped so much to read all your messages. I am 41 and was dx last > April with SLE. I have joint pain, rashes, pleurisy, mouth and nose > sores. Lately a new symtom a day. I have been on prednisone since june. > Up to 30 now down to 10 any lower and to much pain. I have tried for 4 > months to take plaquenil with no luck. I just started 50mlg Imuran this > week. I am hoping it works . I would love any info on how you might feel > on Imuran. My last two urine test had protien in them . I had a major > flare up over the holidays and am just now feeling better after alot of > bed rest. This is a very difficult time. My husband has Hepititis C and > had just finished 54 weeks of treatment  when I was dx. I seem to have > more questions daily and my reumie is not very helpful I am going to a > new one in march. I wonder if you are not aggresive with treatment does > it worsen? Sorry to be so long I have so much bottled up. Plrase fell > free to Email me at Bassw…@flash.net    Thanks, Cindy

–  >^..^<    Da Kat Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. – Arthur C. Clarke

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It has helped so much to read all your messages. I am 41 and was dx last April with SLE. I have joint pain, rashes, pleurisy, mouth and nose sores. Lately a new symtom a day. I have been on prednisone since june. Up to 30 now down to 10 any lower and to much pain. I have tried for 4 months to take plaquenil with no luck. I just started 50mlg Imuran this week. I am hoping it works . I would love any info on how you might feel on Imuran. My last two urine test had protien in them . I had a major flare up over the holidays and am just now feeling better after alot of bed rest. This is a very difficult time. My husband has Hepititis C and had just finished 54 weeks of treatment  when I was dx. I seem to have more questions daily and my reumie is not very helpful I am going to a new one in march. I wonder if you are not aggresive with treatment does it worsen? Sorry to be so long I have so much bottled up. Plrase fell free to Email me at Bassw…@flash.net    Thanks, Cindy

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Has anyone ever taken Imuran.

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Did anyone gey my post.

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Could you repeat the question?

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yes, I took Imuran, as well as it’s derivative purinithol- 6.  The differece being that the purininthol-6 bypasses the gi track, and enters the liver, thereby passing most of the gi track, supposedly reducing side effects.  I have lupus cerebritis, and have failed all the current, even Cytoxan IV chemo.  I do believe my complements rose a tad on the Imuran, but my advanced lupus couldn’t beat it.  Some side effects for me was diarrhea, but all the chemo did that, and gastroreflux, which Prevacid helped immensly.  Please keep me posted on your progress–Kim…@comwares.net if you need to talk.  Take care, Kim * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

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I did!!!!!!HolyMoly Man be patient!!!!LOL jk………….Take Care Teri A Smile goes a Long Way…….

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Yes I am on it right now. I have went to one pill a day. I was taking three.If you are like me I didn’t know at first what Imuran was. But I found out real  quick. Mostly by changing my meds around I found when I took this I was starting to feel better. Then I found out from the drugest at the cancer clinic I go to what it done. Where your white blood count attacks to fast it slows it down.I stops your body from attacking itself faster than they can treat it and your other meds will then start working like they should. When I call the docter tomorrow he will probley up the amount again in my case like I tell people so they can understand my body is comitting sucide and this wounderful little pill is slowing it down to where I can stand it. But you will catch colds easier or what ever you come across. That is why I went down to one pill a day I told the doc I was sick of catching everything.  I am in the later stages of lupus it is thru my whole system. This is due to stupid docters who said they could treat this but the only thing they knew to do was to give you predazone and they didn’t even know the right way to do that. Yes I go to a cancer clinic in Columbus Ohio The women who started this clinic came down with lupus. So they treat lupus as well as cancer and they keep up on the latest studies. MY doc I just love him and before I meet him I swore off docters. I was tiried of being a guiny-pig and sick of all the useless test that didn’t mean anything but line somebodys pocket . So hang in there if it helps you like it helped me you’ll not know what to think I didn’t . GOOD LUCK AND GOD BLESS YOU Talk at you later         Kristi

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Kristi,  I am from Ohio too.  Who is your doc in Columbus and where is this place.  My son lives in Columbus too.  The one who just got married sat. I go to the Cleveland clinic, did for 6 months and It was too much to drive then a new rheumy came here near me.  I like her too.  Real smart. Is there a web site for the place in Columbus and is it affiliated with OSU campus…..I am nosey and need options if necessary so just in case……. Write me at home. Columbus from me is only about a 2 hour drive.  Thanks, looking forward to hearing from you…. Janers

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chicken pox vac.

Question:

My kids have their check ups coming up and I know the topic of chicken pox vaccination will come up.  I have a great pediatrician and have never left the office wishing she would have explained something better.  I have decline on the chicken pox vaccine for 4 years now waiting for my son to bring them home from preschool and after two years we still haven’t had the chicken pox.  I have been told that actually only 30% of kids are getting the vaccine and the #1 reason the AMA recommends the vaccination is so parents don’t miss work.  I guess I still don’t know what to do.  On one side I know that the vaccine can prevent a childhood illness (but for how long and are boosters going to be required?) but on  the flip side I had the chicken pox and was fine. What’s your opinion on the subject? Any one know of any web sites to inform me on the subject? Thanks, Vonna mom ofJacob 5, Abi 3 and Sam 16 months

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One reason I heard in favor of the vaccine  is that chicken pox can leave scars if scratched. The vaccine gets your kids through the years when they don’t have the willpower to resist scratching, hence preventing  scaring. I think it only lasts for 7 years. I doubt that the AMA story is true. I have no web sites, but I think the Japanese have been using the vaccine for 10 years so your might start looking there. My 14 month old will be getting his next month. My ped recommended it strongly. She says she has lost two patients to chicken pox. hth Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My kids have their check ups coming up and I know the topic of chicken pox vaccination will come up.  I have a great pediatrician and have never left the office wishing she would have explained something better.  I have decline on the chicken pox vaccine for 4 years now waiting for my son to bring them home from preschool and after two years we still haven’t had the chicken pox.  I have been told that actually only 30% of kids are getting the vaccine and the #1 reason the AMA recommends the vaccination is so parents don’t miss work.  I guess I still don’t know what to do.  On one side I know that the vaccine can prevent a childhood illness (but for how long and are boosters going to be required?) but on  the flip side I had the chicken pox and was fine. What’s your opinion on the subject? Any one know of any web sites to inform me on the subject? Thanks, Vonna mom ofJacob 5, Abi 3 and Sam 16 months

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One reason I heard in favor of the vaccine  is that chicken pox can leave scars if scratched. The vaccine gets your kids through the years when they don’t have the willpower to resist scratching, hence preventing  scaring. I think it only lasts for 7 years.

I had the chicken pox so badly that, if I ever get a chest xray in the future, I’ll need to explain to the Xray people that all those white dots you can see inside my lungs? Those are chicken pox scars. I’ve got one really bad scar on the side of my nose as well. I remember having the chicken pox, and it was terrible – I know I kept sticking to the bedsheets, and no matter what was done, I itched like crazy. So if there is a vaccine that’s reliable and causes no side effects, I say yes.. mind you, not everyone will get them as badly as I did.. Mel Melissa Torresan

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The chicken pox vaccine came out when my DS was almost 3.  He wasn’t able to get it at his 3 year check up due to all the other shots.  So I was going to go back in 2 weeks for him to get it.  Ends up,  someone in the waiting room at that 3 year check up had had them and 10 days later so did DS. Therefore, when DD was just over 1, I had her get it.  I figure that any disease that can be avoided, should be.  As for boosters, I don’t think the jury is back on that, but other things require boosters too (like tetanus, TB etc) Marion—tampamom to Louis(6) and Erica(2) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                                             <snip So if there is a vaccine that’s reliable and causes no side effects, I say yes.. mind you, not everyone will get them as badly as I did.. Mel Melissa Torresan

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My kids have their check ups coming up and I know the topic of chicken pox vaccination will come up.  I have a great pediatrician and have never left the office wishing she would have explained something better.  I have decline on the chicken pox vaccine for 4 years now waiting for my son to bring them home from preschool and after two years we still haven’t had the chicken pox.  I have been told that actually only 30% of kids are getting the vaccine and the #1 reason the AMA recommends the vaccination is so parents don’t miss work.  I guess I still don’t know what to do.  On one side I know that the vaccine can prevent a childhood illness (but for how long and are boosters going to be required?) but on  the flip side I had the chicken pox and was fine. What’s your opinion on the subject? Any one know of any web sites to inform me on the subject? Thanks, Vonna

Ok, here is what my pediatrician said about this vac. First, after the vac, the child IS contagious with the chicken pox for at least 10-14 days after getting the shot. So, she doesn’t give it to any children whose moms are pregnant. And, the child can still GET the chicken pox. The chances of getting the chicken pox after the vac are a lot smaller, and if they do get the chicken pox, it’s a mild case. That’s all I know Olena

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I have been told that actually only 30% of kids are getting the vaccine and the #1 reason the AMA recommends the vaccination is so parents don’t miss work.

This (#1 reason) sounds *highly* unlikely to me. — Allow me to interpret this interesting silence. Jane Austen, "Emma"

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My mother had "shingles" in her last days on this earth, and I remember that they were the chicken pox vaccine that had been hiding in her spinal cord (I think) since the time when she had had the disease as a child.  So, I doubt that a booster shot will be required.  If the vaccine succeeds in giving a child an immunity, it may also implant a colony of chicken pox to wait in the spinal cord until that person is old and frail.  Of course, I don’t know anything about whether the vaccine is a "live" or "dead" vaccine, so I may be way off base here. But, I’ve also known a little girl who had the chicken pox (before the vaccine was available) 4 times!! Each time was a fairly mild case, but she just couldn’t seem to get the immunity!  Weird! Having said that, my 4-yr old son has had the vaccine, so I don’t have to worry about him scratching scars into existence, AND because it is required for school, too! Paula * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Vonna Ok, here is what my pediatrician said about this vac. First, after the vac, the child IS contagious with the chicken pox for at least 10-14 days after getting the shot. So, she doesn’t give it to any children whose moms are pregnant. And, the child can still GET the chicken pox. The chances of getting the chicken pox after the vac are a lot smaller, and if they do get the chicken pox, it’s a mild case. That’s all I know Olena

OK, here’s our experience.  All 3 of my kids and first granddaughter got the shots and all 4 came down with mild cases.  I was told that was a good thing, because it protected the girls for later when pregnant and our son was protected at puberty.  If I’m not mistaking if a boy gets them around puberty, there is a possibility of become sterile.  For those that get them, try your best to kill the itching (they do scar) with calamine lotion & putting ground oatmeal in a tepid bath. Judy

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I could be wrong, but I think the chicken pox vaccine is going to be added to the list of required vaccines in our area (for school enrollment). There are a number of moms in my area that are against immunizations altogether. Doesn’t that make it more dangerous for the rest of the kids–and adults? Susie — Susie Michelle Cortright www.momscape.com Support, help, and inspiration for moms.

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There are a number of moms in my area that are against immunizations altogether. Doesn’t that make it more dangerous for the rest of the kids–and adults? Yes it does, that means that if everyone decides that their kids don’t need the vaccinations, that whooping cough and diptheria will come back and we will see a lot of  children dying again. Especially now since everyone has become antibiotic happy and wants it for a little sniffle (I am not saying everyone is like this, just some people are).  Also, I meant to put this in my other post, the chicken pox vaccine is a live virus that is how it works, you put the live virus in your body and your immune system thinks that you have it and builds the immunity to it, getting a slight fever means that your body is working properly at fighting the disease. Sue B.

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The chicken pox vaccine does not give you shingles when you are older, it is the chicken pox virus itself. It is a virus that stays dorment in your spinal cord and comes out when you are older, under extreme stress and/or sickness. When you get the vaccine and the boosters as needed maybe chicken pox and shingles will be wiped out. My husband had shingles and it was so bad that he wanted to die. Why are people resisting the boosters as they get older, you have to get boosters for the DPT, HIB Hepititis, tetanus every ten years and all of the other vaccines, so why is that such a problem? I think that the chicken pox vaccine is wonderful. Why wouldn’t parents want to spare their kids from this irritating disease? They have to miss school, parents have to miss work ( and I am not saying that this should be the sole reason for getting it ), it is very highly contagious disease that could prove very harmful to your child. You don’t know if your child is going to be the one who dies from it, why take that chance. My 2 cents. Sue B.

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<<On one side I know that the vaccine can prevent a childhood illness (but for how long and are boosters going to be required?) but on the flip side I had the chicken pox and was fine. What’s your opinion on the subject? I think any kind of vaccine should be a judgement call on the part of a parent. Yes boosters are required as are for most of the vaccines anyway. But whoever gets them after they get out of school? And no they don’t know how long they will last right now. They are estimating at about 10 years. The Japanese have been using the vaccine for quite awhile now and still no definite answers on some questions. There is actually some questions as to whether the vaccine will cause more outbreaks of shingles later on in life than if one got the chicken pox naturally. Also, some people develop a natural immunity to chicken pox on their own. And yes one of the reasons that most parents get the vaccine and why some Dr,’s recommend it is because of missing work. Pretty sad as far as I’m concerned. Think about how bad it could be if your child gets the disease and research it. Then research what could happen if they get the vaccine. As a parent, weigh the two out and make a decision comfortable for your family. A Dr. can’t guarantee that something bad will happen to your child if they catch something anymore than he can guarantee something bad won’t happen if they get the vaccine. Mainmom to Tara (13) Joseph (4) Sierra (3)

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<<AND because it is required for school, too! If someone doesn’t want to get vaccines, don’t let the school rule influence you. It is not a law that all children get vaccinated. The government can’t make you do it. You can get by without. It is school policy but not a law. You can go to school without vaccines, join the service and travel abroad. All perfectly legal. It’s a matter of priorities. Mainmom to Tara (13) Joseph (4) Sierra (3)

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                            <snip <<. Yes boosters are required as are for most of the vaccines anyway. But whoever gets them after they get out of school And yes one of the reasons that most parents get the vaccine and why some Dr,’s recommend it is because of missing work. Pretty sad as far as I’m concerned.              The people who get the boosters after school are those who need them for their employment (teachers, child care       workers, some health workers etc)  I believe some of them are also needed for travel outside of the United States.               If a doctor recommends a shot for your child on the basis of your probability of missing work, I think you  have a  bigger problem than deciding your stance on vaccines.  I think you need a different doctor. <<Think about how bad it could be if your child gets the disease and research it. Then research what could happen if they get the vaccine. As a parent, weigh the two out and make a decision comfortable for your family.               Agreed.  But keep in mind that any child who by choice is not immunized for whatever, can present a risk for those who CANNOT be immunized due to ongoing health concerns etc. <<A Dr. can’t guarantee that something bad will happen to your child if they catch something anymore than he can guarantee something bad won’t happen if they get the vaccine.              True. It’s all a matter of probabilities. Marion—-Tampamom to Louis(6) and Erica(2)

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Especially now since everyone has become antibiotic happy and wants it for a little sniffle

Sometimes I wish I can get antibiotics for any little thing my kids get. Something about the government is going to regulate docs dispensing antibiotics (don’t know if that is true) But my pediatrician says that if we give antibiotics to kids for every little thing, then they can get immune to the medicine.

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If someone doesn’t want to get vaccines, don’t let the school rule influence you. It is not a law that all children get vaccinated. The government can’t make you do it. You can get by without. It is school policy but not a law. You can go to school without vaccines, join the service and travel abroad. All perfectly legal. It’s a matter of priorities.

Then why is it that when I was in High School, I needed proof of being up to date on my ’shots’. And I couldn’t come back to school until I had that proof?

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Personally my kids are not getting the chicken pox vac. I have read in various places(sorry don’t have them handy) that the vac. *wears* off in about 10 years and they would have to get a new vac. done. I am not willing to say that my kids will have it done and then in 20 years when they are adults they "don’t want to get it" and come down with the chicken pox much worse. (Adults get it much worse then kids do) So, I am willing to risk whatever small percentage it is that my kids would die from it. Oh the percentages I heard, well they were numbers..but this is what they said: approximately 3 million kids get the chicken pox every year, out of that 30 die from it. That’s 0.000001% of a chance that my children would die from it. Besides, 5 years from now they will have some huge story on the news about how something is wrong with the vac and any child was vac. should be weary of a certain disease or something. My kids did get vaccines for everything else though. Mary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My kids have their check ups coming up and I know the topic of chicken pox vaccination will come up.  I have a great pediatrician and have never left the office wishing she would have explained something better.  I have decline on the chicken pox vaccine for 4 years now waiting for my son to bring them home from preschool and after two years we still haven’t had the chicken pox.  I have been told that actually only 30% of kids are getting the vaccine and the #1 reason the AMA recommends the vaccination is so parents don’t miss work.  I guess I still don’t know what to do.  On one side I know that the vaccine can prevent a childhood illness (but for how long and are boosters going to be required?) but on  the flip side I had the chicken pox and was fine. What’s your opinion on the subject? Any one know of any web sites to inform me on the subject? Thanks, Vonna mom ofJacob 5, Abi 3 and Sam 16 months

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Yes, but when these diseases were around thousands of kids were dying every year. With polio it was upwards of like 15,000+ kids in the US alone were dying from it. Chicken pox, as I stated in my other post only 30 kids die a year. Right now I don’t think that were I live requires the chicken pox vaccine…but if they ever did I think I would give religious/other reasons as to why I didn’t let them have it. Mary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes it does, that means that if everyone decides that their kids don’t need the vaccinations, that whooping cough and diptheria will come back and we will see a lot of  children dying again. Sue B.

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I think any kind of vaccine should be a judgement call on the part of a parent. Yes boosters are required as are for most of the vaccines anyway. But whoever gets them after they get out of school?

Vaccines work as a public health safety issue.  They only work if the whole population is vaccinated.  If individuals decide that they do not want certain vaccines, they increase the risk of disease to others in the population. One individual, by placing themselves at risk, does not have the right to place others at risk. As for boosters, the tetanus boosters are needed every ten years for everyone, not only school-aged children. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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<<The chicken pox vaccine does not give you shingles when you are older, it is the chicken pox virus itself. But when you get the chickenpox vaccine, you are also getting the chicken pox virus. Meaning that the virus is in your system and can later develop into shingles. Some scientists are concerned about the vaccine causing shingles to be more prevalent in later years in people who had the vaccine as opposed to people who caught chickenpox naturally or never got it at all. Mainmom to Tara (13) Joseph (4) Sierra (3)

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<One individual, by placing themselves at risk, does not have the right to place others at risk. Smoking puts me at risk, and other people drinking and driving, so do pesticides and chemicals and hormones in our air and food. You can’t draw a line here. No one has the right to force me or my children to have a vaccine that no Dr. can guarantee will NOT harm my child or keep them from getting whatever is so risky. Mainmom to Tara (13) Joseph (4) Sierra (3)

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<Then why is it that when I was in High School, I needed proof of being up to date on my ’shots’. And I couldn’t come back to school until I had that proof? Because you didn’t choose to question it or take measures to get by it. Every child in school has not had all vaccinations. There are medical, personal and religious exemptions. You can also travel out of the country without them too. Although not everywhere. Mainmom to Tara (13) Joseph (4) Sierra (3)

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Smoking puts me at risk, and other people drinking and driving, so do pesticides and chemicals and hormones in our air and food.

So true!  Fortunately, there are laws which attempt to reduce those risks to the public. No one has the right to force me or my children to have a vaccine …

This is the same argument that smokers and drunk drivers use! What prevents YOUR children from getting certain diseases is the fact that OTHER children DO get vaccinated (and receive a concommitant risk with that).  If the whole population thought and acted as you do, we’d be back to the days of widespread smallpox, polio, and whooping cough. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

But when you get the chickenpox vaccine, you are also getting the chicken pox virus.

This is not the case.  The viruses in vaccines are not live, whole viruses.  They are either bits and pieces of the virus, or in some cases, attenuated forms of the virus. They are unable to cause the disease or sequela. (One exception to this is the live polio vaccine, which is being phased out.) When a virus becomes part of your DNA as is the case for the real chicken pox virus, it can become active later in life.  The nice thing about the chicken pox vaccine is that it activates your immune system so that the real virus is unable to lodge itself within your system.  The viral particles in the vaccine do not stay with you and this necessitates boosters. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Personally my kids are not getting the chicken pox vac.

                          <snip My kids did get vaccines for everything else though. Mary

Why not this one when all the others were OK?  What’s different here? Marion—Tampamom to Louis(6) and Erica(2)

Response:

Your Prayers Please

Question:

Hello everyone.  I am asking for everyone’s prayers for my mother.  Just found out this morning that my mother has walking pnemonia.  That would be fine for any normal person but my mother has Hepititis C and is in desperate need of a liver transplant.  I had been trying to reach her for about 3 weeks and when I called my Aunt she emailed me back that my grandmother was the only one able to get through to her live in. She is very sick and he said that she wasn’t taking her medicine so please if this sound mean I’m sorry but pray for the lord to ease her pain and suffering and take her soon. Thank you all so much.

Angela, My prayers are with your mother & your family.  I’ll pray for God’s will to be done, whatever that is and for peace & comfort for you mother. Candi

Response:

Angela, I will keep you and your mother in my prayers.  I hope that you all find peace in your hearts and within your family. Mary H. Boulder City, NV —-If you treat an individual … as if he were what he ought to be and could be, he will become what he ought to be and could be.  Goethe

Response:

Angela, I’ll pray your mother’s life ends without suffering and that you and your family have the strength you need in this difficult time. Take care, Chris

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone.  I am asking for everyone’s prayers for my mother.  Just found out this morning that my mother has walking pnemonia.  That would be fine for any normal person but my mother has Hepititis C and is in desperate need of a liver transplant.  I had been trying to reach her for about 3 weeks and when I called my Aunt she emailed me back that my grandmother was the only one able to get through to her live in. She is very sick and he said that she wasn’t taking her medicine so please if this sound mean I’m sorry but pray for the lord to ease her pain and suffering and take her soon. Thank you all so much. — Angela

Prayers sent for strength for your family. Anne/NC E-mail response not expected but E-mail back delete the ".uk" at the end

Response:

Coleen said it all. Prayers and hugs to you and your family. emerald

Response:

Thank you everyone for all your prayers.  Finally got to talk to my mother last night and it appears she is over the pnemonia and is going to Kansas City next Thursday to see the specialist about the liver trasplant so everyone cross your fingers and hope she gets what she needs to live.  You all are wonderful. — Angela in the UK "So much time and so little to see…strike that, reverse it"- Gene Wilder in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Angela, I’ll pray your mother’s life ends without suffering and that you and your family have the strength you need in this difficult time. Take care, Chris

Response:

Thank you everyone for all your prayers.  Finally got to talk to my mother last night and it appears she is over the pnemonia and is going to Kansas City next Thursday to see the specialist about the liver trasplant so everyone cross your fingers and hope she gets what she needs to live.  You all are wonderful. — Angela in the UK

Thanks for the good news Angela!  We’ll continue to pray for your mom. Candi

Response:

Will pray that G-d helps to ease her pain and suffering.

I agree with everything said here, but am a bit curious as to why God’s name is not spelled out.  Previously I have only seen curse words handled this way — it’s obvious that the writer (I believe it was George) is a good person who believes in the Lord, so I was just wondering if there is some tradition or religion that requires the name to be written like this. Elizabeth "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity…"

Response:

I believe it is a Jewish tradition that the name of God should not be spelled out, and I’ve seen people of other faiths do it as well. Barbara – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Will pray that G-d helps to ease her pain and suffering. I agree with everything said here, but am a bit curious as to why God’s name is not spelled out.  Previously I have only seen curse words handled this way — it’s obvious that the writer (I believe it was George) is a good person who believes in the Lord, so I was just wondering if there is some tradition or religion that requires the name to be written like this. Elizabeth "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity…"

Response:

Angela, my thoughts and prayers will certainly be with you and your family.  It doesn’t sound "mean" to me at all…..it’s hard to accept sometimes, but there are times when death is truly a blessing. Barbara – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone.  I am asking for everyone’s prayers for my mother.  Just found out this morning that my mother has walking pnemonia.  That would be fine for any normal person but my mother has Hepititis C and is in desperate need of a liver transplant.  I had been trying to reach her for about 3 weeks and when I called my Aunt she emailed me back that my grandmother was the only one able to get through to her live in. She is very sick and he said that she wasn’t taking her medicine so please if this sound mean I’m sorry but pray for the lord to ease her pain and suffering and take her soon. Thank you all so much. — Angela in the UK "So much time and so little to see…strike that, reverse it"- Gene Wilder in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.

Response:

Angela, Will pray that G-d helps to ease her pain and suffering. It is not mean at all, but fully accepted to pray for G-d to ease suffering. If the only way that pain and suffering will end is with the dath of a loved one, then G-d will bring her home. If some other way exists for G-d to ease her pain then G-d will do that. In any case, it is not our decision. Our decision is to pray or not. If you beleive that G-d hears and answers prayer, then you know that praying to end pain is never mean. George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone.  I am asking for everyone’s prayers for my mother. Just found out this morning that my mother has walking pnemonia.  That would be fine for any normal person but my mother has Hepititis C and is in desperate need of a liver transplant.  I had been trying to reach her for about 3 weeks and when I called my Aunt she emailed me back that my grandmother was the only one able to get through to her live in. She is very sick and he said that she wasn’t taking her medicine so please if this sound mean I’m sorry but pray for the lord to ease her pain and suffering and take her soon. Thank you all so much. — Angela in the UK "So much time and so little to see…strike that, reverse it"- Gene Wilder in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Angela, the prayers of our family are being sent across to you and your entire family, especially your Mom. God Bless, ConnieD. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone.  I am asking for everyone’s prayers for my mother.  Just found out this morning that my mother has walking pnemonia.  That would be fine for any normal person but my mother has Hepititis C and is in desperate need of a liver transplant.  I had been trying to reach her for about 3 weeks and when I called my Aunt she emailed me back that my grandmother was the only one able to get through to her live in. She is very sick and he said that she wasn’t taking her medicine so please if this sound mean I’m sorry but pray for the lord to ease her pain and suffering and take her soon. Thank you all so much. — Angela in the UK "So much time and so little to see…strike that, reverse it"- Gene Wilder in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.

Response:

Angela, Prayers are on the way for your mother, you, your family and her care givers.  I know it is a hard time, but sometimes we are very selfish individuals and want to keep our loved ones here with us.  I think you are a very loving and unselfish daughter to realize this and to be able to accept what is best for your mother. Love in Stitches, Coleen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone.  I am asking for everyone’s prayers for my mother.  Just found out this morning that my mother has walking pnemonia.  That would be fine for any normal person but my mother has Hepititis C and is in desperate need of a liver transplant.  I had been trying to reach her for about 3 weeks and when I called my Aunt she emailed me back that my grandmother was the only one able to get through to her live in. She is very sick and he said that she wasn’t taking her medicine so please if this sound mean I’m sorry but pray for the lord to ease her pain and suffering and take her soon. Thank you all so much. — Angela in the UK "So much time and so little to see…strike that, reverse it"- Gene Wilder in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.

Response:

Hello everyone.  I am asking for everyone’s prayers for my mother.  Just found out this morning that my mother has walking pnemonia.  That would be fine for any normal person but my mother has Hepititis C and is in desperate need of a liver transplant.  I had been trying to reach her for about 3 weeks and when I called my Aunt she emailed me back that my grandmother was the only one able to get through to her live in. She is very sick and he said that she wasn’t taking her medicine so please if this sound mean I’m sorry but pray for the lord to ease her pain and suffering and take her soon. Thank you all so much. — Angela in the UK "So much time and so little to see…strike that, reverse it"- Gene Wilder in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.

Response:

Can someone please help us??

Question:

About a year ago, my brother-in-law brought my sister over to my house and said "she needs help." He left for a couple of hours while my sister tells me this tale of a satanic cult at work trying to poison her, people who are following her and trying to run her off the road, the police are all involved and keep in contact through CB radios, satellite dishes, UFO’s…..you get the picture. As I watched her, her eyes darted back and forth at a constant rate, as if she was on the look-out for something. If a neighbor drove by, she would whisper "who’s that??" It was obvious she was suffering from a paranoid delusional disorder and was diagnosed with that a few weeks later. But she wouldn’t take her medication and has gone downhill ever since. Her husband is an alcoholic and heroin addict. The kids live in absolute poverty. They went without electricity for WEEKS, during the coldest part of the Michigan winter. There was no running water. Her and her husband physically fight in front of the kids. Last week, no HEAT in the trailer. We have called social services for both the kids and her. They do nothing. We’ve called the cops for the domestic fights, they do nothing. I retained my attorney to try and move the local mental health agency to committ her. They won’t, saying she has to be a threat to herself and to others. I’ve petitioned, citing NUMEROUS times she has spoken of suicide. She is now starving herself to death because she thinks people are trying to poison her. She looks terrible. I cried all the way home. We have called Protective Services and school counselors for the sake of the kids, hoping that if they were taken away from them, they both would seek help. But those agencies do nothing. About the only recourse I see is contacting our local newspaper and have them do a story entitled: "Just Waiting For Tragedy To Happen" because it will very soon. Either they will kill themselves, or kill each other. BTW, my brother-in-law also has Hepititis C AND diabetes, so at his rate, he won’t be here on earth much longer. My sister is forty, I’m forty-two and this is killing our poor parents. Any ideas?  Any input??  Any help??   Thanks, Jim — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email — always at Talkway.

Response:

In article <2YbH2.1049$2G6….@c01read02.service.talkway.com>, jungle-jim <j…@jungle.com> wrote: >Any ideas?  Any input??  Any help??  

It’s awful that that is going on.  Really… I think a lot of us here have been on the other end of that at some point or another.  Also, there are a lot of family members of schizophrenic people here who might have better advice than I can offer. I saw no other replies so far, and replied so you know people out here have heard you. Also, I have some advice that may or may not be useful, but only on one minor corner of the problem.  How paranoid is she about food?  Does she believe that someone specific is trying to poison her, or is it indefinite?  If it’s someone specific, is there a way to get her food that she knows hasn’t been ‘contaminated’?  Food that is pre-sealed or something? I ask because I know well (from experience) how possible it is to starve oneself to death thinking people are putting things in your food.  At the time this happened, I was able to finally eat by getting pre-sealed food or food from outside the hospital that I thought was doing the poisoning.  The problem is, I was able to trust at least some people, and I don’t know that for sure about your sister. I hope for everyone’s sake that this turns out as well as possible.   Schizophrenia’s terrifying for anyone involved; I hope the ‘tragedy’ you speak of never happens. — — "As he breaks the night to cry, ‘It’s really me!  Really you and really me.  It’s so hard for us to really be really you and really me.  You’ll lose me though I’m always really free.’" –David Bowie, "The Wild-Eyed Boy From Freecloud" -*-*- (*)

Response:

My only suggestion is that you contact NAMI if you have not already. I don’t expect they can work miracles, but at least you are likely to find people who have faced & are facing the same problem as you. Possibly they will have some useful advice.     HELP FOR CLOSE RELATIVES OR FRIENDS OF SCHIZOPHRENICS          If you are a close relative or friend of a schizophrenic     patient, you might have great difficulties at times coping     with their behavior or with their denial or with problems     involving the legal system or the care-giving system.  In the     US, there is an organization, NAMI (National Alliance for the     Mentally Ill), which might be able to give you personal     support & advice.          Although NAMI also has mental patients as members, it is     mainly a volunteer organization of close relatives of     patients with serious mental illnesses like schizophrenia or     bipolar disorder.  NAMI is made up of local chapters & state     organizations & a national organization.  If you want to     contact NAMI, the best approach is to phone the national     organization at 1-703-524-7600 & ask them to refer you to     your nearest local chapter or to some experienced member near     you.          If you are having problems with your relative, it is     likely that some NAMI member has already experienced the same     problem & can tell you what worked & what didn’t.  NAMI might     also give you a sense that you are not alone with your     problem.  As far as I know, there is no charge for this help,     although if you decide to become a member of NAMI, there are     membership dues.          NAMI also distributes informative pamphlets, conducts     regular classes & meetings, & does political lobbying for     legislation to help the mentally ill.          If you are a regular reader of     alt.support.schizophrenia, you might have noticed that there     is controversy here about NAMI & its policies & its     influential members.  I think the difference of opinion     results mainly from the difference in viewpoint between a     parent watching a son or daughter seeming to deteriorate     mentally and the patient himself.  They are likely to have     quite different attitudes toward psychiatric treatments.     Anyone who considers joining NAMI will have to make a     decision about this difference.          Walt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -jungle-jim wrote: > About a year ago, my brother-in-law brought my sister over to my house > and said "she needs help." He left for a couple of hours while my > sister tells me this tale of a satanic cult at work trying to poison > her, people who are following her and trying to run her off the road, > the police are all involved and keep in contact through CB radios, > satellite dishes, UFO’s…..you get the picture. As I watched her, her > eyes darted back and forth at a constant rate, as if she was on the > look-out for something. If a neighbor drove by, she would whisper > "who’s that??" It was obvious she was suffering from a paranoid > delusional disorder and was diagnosed with that a few weeks later. But > she wouldn’t take her medication and has gone downhill ever since. > Her husband is an alcoholic and heroin addict. The kids live in > absolute poverty. They went without electricity for WEEKS, during the > coldest part of the Michigan winter. There was no running water. Her > and her husband physically fight in front of the kids. Last week, no > HEAT in the trailer. > We have called social services for both the kids and her. They do > nothing. We’ve called the cops for the domestic fights, they do > nothing. I retained my attorney to try and move the local mental health > agency to committ her. They won’t, saying she has to be a threat to > herself and to others. I’ve petitioned, citing NUMEROUS times she has > spoken of suicide. She is now starving herself to death because she > thinks people are trying to poison her. She looks terrible. I cried all > the way home. We have called Protective Services and school counselors > for the sake of the kids, hoping that if they were taken away from > them, they both would seek help. But those agencies do nothing. > About the only recourse I see is contacting our local newspaper and > have them do a story entitled: "Just Waiting For Tragedy To Happen" > because it will very soon. Either they will kill themselves, or kill > each other. > BTW, my brother-in-law also has Hepititis C AND diabetes, so at his > rate, he won’t be here on earth much longer. > My sister is forty, I’m forty-two and this is killing our poor parents. > Any ideas?  Any input??  Any help?? > Thanks, Jim > — > Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com > Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email — always at Talkway.

Response:

write the news papers and try to get a hold of a tv reporter as well if all else fails.

Response:

JIM when you were describing your sister I thought you may be my brother for a minute. I went through the same exact thing with my delusions. I went home and stayed with parents. I went 1200 miles involving the police and they believed me. My parents did at first too and then they realized I was sick. They tried to get me help and they could not. It was a family friend that was a police officer that stepped in and sent me to the hospital on a 72 hour hold. He knows my family is not sue happy and I would not be either. He could of got in trouble, but he could not see me being that way. I was no threat to myself or anyone else and they put me away. I refused treatment and was let out by a judge. I went through a few months being sick without medication because I refused. I took off in my car for the cities and I ran out of gas. A police officer came and I told him I had killed my son.  The voices told me that the devil had someone go to my house and kill my son and made it looked like I had done it. So when I told the officer that he asked me a bunch of questions and he was able to find out that I had called my parents to pick my son up and he was able to find out my son was ok. he then took me to the hospital. I don’t know if I was a threat to myself or anyone else but I went back to hospital. This time I was so sick I did what the nurses said and took the medicine. I am sorry your family has to deal with this horrible illness. I took the medicine when I hit the bottom and then every since I have remained on my medication and I am pretty stable now. There is hope and it is hard to deal with while you wait for the day she will get medicated. I would suggest that you try to get her to open up or maybe even to lie about her if needed. To lie is hard on your own sister. I do believe that she is at risk until she is on medication though and it could be her life really that is at risk. I have heard that suicide can be very common to untreated cases. I told you of my encounters so you can get a understanding on what it takes sometimes before someone that is psychotic can get help.  If she gets in the hospital have the nurses go to her each hour if she refuses the medication. Best bet is to get a judge to commit her to take her medicine and then they can give shots if need be.      Girl

Response:

Itchy hands and feet

Question:

I am down to 2.5mg prednisone and plan to be completely off in a week – is there any reason related to the pred that i would be having terrible itching on the soles of my feet and now the palms of my hands?  It is really irritating, and hard to itch there!!!  I don’t seem to itch anywhere else.  Anyone have anything like this? Thank you! Kelly

Response:

 YES I ITCH ALMOST PSYCHOTICALLY AT TIMES. MADDENING. DR DID NOTHING TO HELP ME. SORRY I HAVE NO SOLUTION OR NO UNDERSTANDING AS TO WHY I HAVE IT. THOUGHT IT WAS CUZ I AM SO DAMN HAIRY…. SMILE BUT YES I ITCH IN THE PALMS SOMETIMES TILL I COULD SCREAM. AND OTHER AREAS AS WELL….

Response:

Are you on any meds? I had a reaction to immuran that caused me to itch all over, to the point that I felt my skin crawl. Turned out to me an allergic reaction. Also caused hepititis symptoms as my liver was reaction to the imuran. If your doctor is not sure what the reason is, consult another doc!

Response:

South Carolina & Tattoos

Question:

I live in the awful state of South Carolina where tattooing is illeagal.

thats an easy one to answer, MOVE. so simple even I could think of that.  then get a real apprenticeship and pay your dues for a couple of years. not to hard to figure out !!!                             Greg "nightowl" Aksdal

Response:

First I agree with your thoughts on the state….. As for tattoos you can’t charge for them. Charging is what makes the illegal, a gratuity or tip for services rendered is not illegal.

I believe if you look more closely at the law as it stands on the books, the legality has nothing to do with the exchange of money, but it talks about the process of inserting pigment into the skin – basically it tells you what you can and can’t do with your own body.

Response:

First I agree with your thoughts on the state….. As for tattoos you can’t charge for them. Charging is what makes the illegal, a gratuity or tip for services rendered is not illegal. I believe if you look more closely at the law as it stands on the books, the legality has nothing to do with the exchange of money, but it talks about the process of inserting pigment into the skin – basically it tells you what you can and can’t do with your own body.

And it’s only been illegal since about 1964 or 1965. This was a knee-jerk reaction (as are a lot of the stupid laws here) to (I think) a   nationwide hepititis outbreak in the early to mid ’60s. For several years now there have been folks working to get this particular law repealed. I, for one, would find it most convenient not to have to plan trips to the "border" towns for consultations and "legal" tattoo work. –Buzz P.S. – I don’t have any ink yet, but I’ve been working on several designs and an overall theme that I want "just right" before I do it. — 3325 Platt Springs Rd.               fax: 1 803 939 7317 (V+ 632-7317) W. Columbia,SC 29170-2203          phone: 1 803 939 6982 (V+ 632-6982)

Response:

When I checked on the tattoo situation in SC the laws stated that possession of equipment was illegal.

Response:

FDA has too much power

Question:

What a long drawn out post.

Well, that’s why we snip things. Considering the fact that Ireland legalized *divorce* in just the last few years, I find it a surprising notion that Ireland has more medical freedom than the US. Low blow Mr. Wright!

Not hardly.  You were the one casting aspersions on Ireland in the first place.  I just called you on it. To the best of my ability I view it neutrally, Sure you do.  That’s why you’re accusing the FDA of all these things. "To the best of my ability…"  I know I have personal bias, I am well aware of the fact. I have made that bias personal, perhaps you’d like to make your bias public? I didn’t think so.

What bias?  I already said I think the FDA goes too slowly on a lot of things.  In any case, "the best of your ability" doesn’t seem to be too good.  You’re positive the FDA is protecting someone, but you can’t come up with any good reason for it.  So, I don’t believe you. Why should I?  Why should anyone? If you want to protest "the denial of your personal freedom" to choose any treatment you like, go right ahead.  You can picket outside FDA headquarters all day and night for all I care. I am well aware that only objective standards will convince you, and those in control of the FDA of my position. In time I will share the argument I am constructing. I suppose you will complain about my delay, you’ll try to make it out that I have no objective argument.

No, I’m just saying you don’t have one yet.  If you come up with one later on, I’ll be glad to read it. If it’s so depressing, then why don’t you do something about it?

You’re the one with the axe to grind, remember? It surprises you that the FDA is protecting them? Who says they are?  Are you saying that this technology is so radical that existing orthopods can’t learn to use it, so they’re trying to keep it from being accepted?  Or what? 1)The free market says they are being weeded out. 2)Did you see me post that? 3)I said ‘the old are being weeded out by the new’ The FDA acted as a buffer, to protect those doctors, and to let the people of Europe, Canada,  OZ and NZ act as guinea pigs for the SRS. Existing orthapedic surgeons will have to change the procedures they have been using since their first internship. This is not easy, and I’m sure more than a few complained.

You may be sure.  Do you know any orthopedic surgeons?  Surely it would be easy enough to ask a couple about it.  As Steve Harris pointed out in an earlier post, there’s plenty of business to go around, and the orthopods are not in danger of going under because of this new treatment. Complex orthapedic surgery might become a thing of the past with this new technology. Not all of it, certainly.  Some of it, probably. I said might. Do you have a crystal ball that allows you to see that it won’t? Please don’t trivialize this break-through, being able to glue back together shattered and fractured bones will significantly alter the industry.

I thought I was agreeing with you.  But really complex cases will still be complex.  Perhaps somewhat easier to deal with, but still complex. Oh, please.  Repairing broken bones is a "massive cornerstone of the med industry?" It’s not? It’s the only reason I’ve gone to a doctor in the last 2 years!

You ain’t the whole world.  I’ve never broken a bone and neither have many (over 75%?) of the people I know. Maybe I should have said ‘orthapedics’ is a major cornerstone. Either way, it is going through a significant paradigm shift. Times like these can be tumultous, the FDA acted as a stabilizing factor, and I suffered for it. Was it a crime for me to suffer? Is it a crime for me to protest that?

Suffering is not a crime.  It’s fine if you protest it.  It’s your right to do so.  But do so for the right reasons. I couldn’t recieve the treatment of my choice. What’s to disagree about? What, because I haven’t done a full investigation of the FDA, that makes my conclusions incorrect? What reason do you have to disagree with me?

You’re giving me no reason to agree.  I agree you didn’t get the treatment of your choice.  I disagree with your assumption that the FDA deliberately dragged its feet. Oh, shut up.  I didn’t say I was happy that you had to undergo pain and suffering.  Bear in mind that unless this product had been approved the day it appeared, *someone* was going to be in your situation.  If the approval delay had been a week, anyone who broke a bone during that week could be sitting around, fulminating just the way you are.  Would that be justified? I don’t mean to be one to criticize some one who obviously has fathoms more knowledge about this subject than I, but ‘Oh shut up’ is hardly a refute. In fact, it seems to me to be more of an evasion of the argument.

It was also 3 words of the paragraph.  Whoopee.  Try addressing my point. Would it be justified for some one to *sit around* and *fulminate* if they felt a crime had been commited against them? Sure, why not? What else should they do, write a letter to their congressman or something?

Sure, why not?  It’ll have at least as much effect as bitching about it here on Usenet. As far as my rationality, what is your rationale for disagreeing with me?

Because you haven’t made your case.  And I haven’t been vehement.   — David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.      "Few things give a greater feeling of security than a full gas tank."

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(old stuff snipped) I also should have said …The FDA was too busy protecting *certain people* from the pressures of the free market, and holding up progress! The fact of the matter, and what I think you are trying to avoid is, as of June 5, 1997, almost exactly a year before I broke my arm, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Scandinavia, Finland, the UK, Ireland (Ireland for God’s sake!) and Southern Germany were all legally able to use the Norian SRS.(Although a distribution agreement was not reached untill Dec 22, 1997 Still a year before US FDA approval.) (source: norian.com) The FDA didn’t approve it untill December 23, 1998! And you want to make something sinister out of that.  You want to say that the FDA was deliberately dragging its heels.  You want to say that the FDA was "protecting" someone. To the best of my ability I view it neutrally, although I did suffer because of this *deliberate* delay. Which would cause me to have some personal bias. Personally, I don’t view it as sinister, just immoral and unethical. Either way, they most certainly were providing a buffer for the people that will be forced to adapt because of this new technology. They most certainly were protecting someone. And they most certainly were _holding_up_progress_. Who were they protecting?  The cast manufacturers?  If it’s all that big a deal, the stuff would never have been approved. Since I’m not a spy in the FDA I don’t have a detailed log of every person or company that will undergo dramatic change because of SRS. You think that it is impossible that there are orthapedic surgeons who lobby the FDA, or have good old boys in high offices? This new technology is a major break though in the field of orthapedics. It is a time when the old are being weeded out and replaced by the new. It surprises you that the FDA is protecting them?

   Comment:      Actually, it would surprise me.  The FDA does untold damage to orthopedic surgeons and indeed all doctors with its stupid regulations. In general, medical progress does not take money out of doctors’ pockets no matter how fast it goes– I hope you understand that.  There are ALWAYS enough sick people and ill people to go around, and the fraction of dollars that society has advocated for health care in one way or another always get spent.  It just gets spent on different stuff (polio vaccine vs iron lungs).  And different diseases (HIV vs TB and infant diarrhea).  And, ultimately, older people.  But the doctors still get their share.    No, the FDA does not do it to protect domestic doctors. Or domestic medical device and drug manufacturers (that’s a REAL horselaugh).  Or domestic medical industry investors.  Come ON.  These people really DO suffer because they have a smaller market (there are lots of US medical device firms that only EXPORT).      The FDA does it to protect ITSELF.   The FDA is held responsible for bad drugs and bad devices, but not for failure of availability of treatments for bad diseases.  THAT would take enormous voter sophistication.  When you hold up approval for a couple of years, you get to use people in other countries as guinea pigs.  There are really very few political penalties to holding up a good treatment for a couple of years, because people rarely know what they’re missing.  The world is not quite that connected, yet.  They think they’re suffering from a disease, not from lack of a cure that is used in Europe (your story, for instance, will be quite a surprise to 99.9% of people even on this newsgroups who read it; now consider Joe Sixpack who is the average voter…).  But there is a terrible political penalty for approval of something too early, which turns out to have really nasty side effects, which get advertized in the morning headlines.  10 people DIE OF DIET PILL!   So the FDA has every political reason to hold stuff up here for a while, and hardly any to be pathbreakers.    It’s the old argument of Bastiat, who wondered why the economy does not improve if you break a window in a bakery.  Does it not employ the contracter and the glazier and the sand and soda and coal and tin miners, and so on?  An ever expanding array of jobs created?  Sure. But the problem is that the baker has to buy a new window with money that otherwise would have gone for a new suit, which would have employed the tailor and the clothmaker and the cotton grower and and the fertilizer producer, and so on.  For every job created there’s an invisible one destroyed– also in an every expanding array.  The effect on the economy is the same, except that the baker doesn’t have his new suit. Quality of life goes down.    There are things seen, and there are things unseen, as Hazlett says (again and again) in his wonderful book _Economics in One Lesson_. It’s easy to see what is, and hard to see what would have been if the decision had been the other way.  It’s easy to see the fancy federal highway to nowhere built with government money, and hard to see all the other consumer goods, from braces to dance lesons to toilet paper, which didn’t get bought with the same money, which would have contributed to the economy just as much and employed the same number of people, all while giving people a lot better quality of life, because they all got more exactly just what they wanted.  That’s the great problem and conundrum of politics and democracy.    In medicine, there are things seen, and things unseen.  You see the side effects of drugs approved too early.  You don’t see the side effects of drugs approved too late.  It’s very, VERY hard to see the lack of a thing you’ve never heard of.                                        Steve Harris, M.D.

Response:

What a long drawn out post. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (sniveling snipped) I also should have said …The FDA was too busy protecting *certain people* from the pressures of the free market, and holding up progress! The fact of the matter, and what I think you are trying to avoid is, as of June 5, 1997, almost exactly a year before I broke my arm, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Scandinavia, Finland, the UK, Ireland (Ireland for God’s sake!) So?  Are you under the impression that they still live in bogs?

Considering the fact that Ireland legalized *divorce* in just the last few years, I find it a surprising notion that Ireland has more medical freedom than the US. Low blow Mr. Wright! and Southern Germany were all legally able to use the Norian SRS.(Although a distribution agreement was not reached until Dec 22, 1997 Still a year before US FDA approval.) (source: norian.com) The FDA didn’t approve it untill December 23, 1998! And you want to make something sinister out of that.  You want to say that the FDA was deliberately dragging its heels.  You want to say that the FDA was "protecting" someone. To the best of my ability I view it neutrally, Sure you do.  That’s why you’re accusing the FDA of all these things.

"To the best of my ability…"  I know I have personal bias, I am well aware of the fact. I have made that bias personal, perhaps you’d like to make your bias public? I didn’t think so. although I did suffer because of this *deliberate* delay. Which would cause me to have some personal bias. Personally, I don’t view it as sinister, just immoral and unethical. Either way, they most certainly were providing a buffer for the people that will be forced to adapt because of this new technology. "Most certainly."  An assertion that I’m sure you firmly believe. What you’re not doing is giving me any good reasons why I should believe it too.

No, I haven’t yet have I? I realize that my subjective experience is by no means the ultimate guide in governmental policy making. The thing is, I am protesting the denial of my freedom by my government. This protest is founded on my personal experience. I am well aware that only objective standards will convince you, and those in control of the FDA of my position. In time I will share the argument I am constructing. I suppose you will complain about my delay, you’ll try to make it out that I have no objective argument. I expect that when I begin posting that argument, you will be a stout critic. Please, criticize away! I appreciate having someone to point out my flaws, so I can strengthen my position. They most certainly were protecting someone. And they most certainly were _holding_up_progress_. More "most certainly"s.  Yawn.

Do I bore you, Mr. Wright? Why do you bother responding then? I can’t imagine that you are just trying to degrade my arguement, rather than prove me wrong? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Who were they protecting?  The cast manufacturers?  If it’s all that big a deal, the stuff would never have been approved. Since I’m not a spy in the FDA I don’t have a detailed log of every person or company that will undergo dramatic change because of SRS. You think that it is impossible that there are orthapedic surgeons who lobby the FDA, or have good old boys in high offices? No, I think it’s quite possible.  However, what you’re not doing is giving me any idea who the hell they’d be or what they’d stand to gain by this delay.  Or any evidence that this actually happened. The FDA is not noted for great speed.  This is just another depressing example of that fact.

As soon as my FDA spies get that information, I’ll name names! I’m not a private investigator. I am merely hypothesizing a solution to a flaw I see in the current governmental structure. I think that the FDA has a lot of opportunity to be corrupt, and I see no reason why they should have a monopoly on the drug approval process. If it’s so depressing, then why don’t you do something about it? This new technology is a major break though in the field of orthapedics. It is a time when the old are being weeded out and replaced by the new. It surprises you that the FDA is protecting them? Who says they are?  Are you saying that this technology is so radical that existing orthopods can’t learn to use it, so they’re trying to keep it from being accepted?  Or what?

1)The free market says they are being weeded out. 2)Did you see me post that? 3)I said ‘the old are being weeded out by the new’ The FDA acted as a buffer, to protect those doctors, and to let the people of Europe, Canada,  OZ and NZ act as guinea pigs for the SRS. Existing orthapedic surgeons will have to change the procedures they have been using since their first internship. This is not easy, and I’m sure more than a few complained. Enough to create a lobby, that prolonged the approval of SRS? We’ll probably never know for sure.  I promise I’ll clarify my position in future postings. Complex orthapedic surgery might become a thing of the past with this new technology. Not all of it, certainly.  Some of it, probably.

I said might. Do you have a crystal ball that allows you to see that it won’t? Please don’t trivialize this break-through, being able to glue back together shattered and fractured bones will significantly alter the industry. We’re not talking about some new asthma spray here, we are talking about a monumental change in a foundation of the medical industry. The *gluing* of broken bones! This massive corner stone of the med industry Oh, please.  Repairing broken bones is a "massive cornerstone of the med industry?"

It’s not? It’s the only reason I’ve gone to a doctor in the last 2 years! Maybe I should have said ‘orthapedics’ is a major cornerstone. Either way, it is going through a significant paradigm shift. Times like these can be tumultous, the FDA acted as a stabilizing factor, and I suffered for it. Was it a crime for me to suffer? Is it a crime for me to protest that? is having a major upheaval, and I think the FDA provided a buffer to allow *certain people* time to adapt, to *restructure investments*.    I PAID THE PRICE. Yeah, that’s what you think.  So far, you’re not giving me a reason to agree with you.

I couldn’t recieve the treatment of my choice. What’s to disagree about? What, because I haven’t done a full investigation of the FDA, that makes my conclusions incorrect? What reason do you have to disagree with me? Don’t insult me by saying it never would have been approved. I assure you it would have. Not with a "massive cornerstone of the med industry" at stake. Don’t you REALIZE the MASSIVE FINANCIAL IMPLICATIONS of this? Why, they would KILL ANYONE WHO STOOD IN THEIR WAY.

 Are you implying that I have exaggerated my claims? Very funny. Is this the basis of your refute? If you want to say the FDA takes too long, fine.  If the product could have been approved sooner, maybe it should have been. No, it’s not fine. You didn’t miss out on a treatement that would have cut your incapacitated time in half, and cut your recovery time by God only knows! Oh, shut up.  I didn’t say I was happy that you had to undergo pain and suffering.  Bear in mind that unless this product had been approved the day it appeared, *someone* was going to be in your situation.  If the approval delay had been a week, anyone who broke a bone during that week could be sitting around, fulminating just the way you are.  Would that be justified?

I don’t mean to be one to criticize some one who obviously has fathoms more knowledge about this subject than I, but ‘Oh shut up’ is hardly a refute. In fact, it seems to me to be more of an evasion of the argument. Would it be justified for some one to *sit around* and *fulminate* if they felt a crime had been commited against them? Sure, why not? What else should they do, write a letter to their congressman or something? And while I’m sorry you couldn’t get the treatment here, I doubt this was intended to persecute you personally, and I’d like to see more evidence of corruption than your indignant assertion. What ever in the world gave you the impression that I felt like I was being singled out by the FDA? Wait a second, this is another one of your trick posts. The kind where you try to make me out to be something I am not. Sane?  Rational?

So you think that my suffering has caused me to become insane. Well, it may have. Probably not.As far as my rationality, what is your rationale for disagreeing with me? And why so vehemently? I think I have explained my rationale, and I intend to go into further detail, regardless of the moans of my cynical critics. If you are seriously interested in seeing more evidence of the corruption in the FDA I suggest you get a subscription to your local newspaper and read it *daily*. Did you happen to see today’s? Yes, and there were no FDA horror stories in it.  Sorry.  Maybe tomorrow.

Well, only if you consider the practice of eating ground up human baby kidneys as medicine. If I was on my death bed, in need of that medicine, I would probably want it too. I guess that’s why it should be illegal! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (famous last words snipped)

Response:

[with annoying lack of indenting for proper attribution; I don't think it's asking too much to differentiate my paragraphs from yours.  I've fixed it up in here.] (old stuff snipped) I also should have said …The FDA was too busy protecting *certain people* from the pressures of the free market, and holding up progress! The fact of the matter, and what I think you are trying to avoid is, as of June 5, 1997, almost exactly a year before I broke my arm, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Scandinavia, Finland, the UK, Ireland (Ireland for God’s sake!)

So?  Are you under the impression that they still live in bogs? and Southern Germany were all legally able to use the Norian SRS.(Although a distribution agreement was not reached until Dec 22, 1997 Still a year before US FDA approval.) (source: norian.com) The FDA didn’t approve it untill December 23, 1998! And you want to make something sinister out of that.  You want to say that the FDA was deliberately dragging its heels.  You want to say that the FDA was "protecting" someone. To the best of my ability I view it neutrally,

Sure you do.  That’s why you’re accusing the FDA of all these things. although I did suffer because of this *deliberate* delay. Which would cause me to have some personal bias. Personally, I don’t view it as sinister, just immoral and unethical. Either way, they most certainly were providing a buffer for the people that will be forced to adapt because of this new technology.

"Most certainly."  An assertion that I’m sure you firmly believe. What you’re not doing is giving me any good reasons why I should believe it too. They most certainly were protecting someone. And they most certainly were _holding_up_progress_.

More "most certainly"s.  Yawn. Who were they protecting?  The cast manufacturers?  If it’s all that big a deal, the stuff would never have been approved. Since I’m not a spy in the FDA I don’t have a detailed log of every person or company that will undergo dramatic change because of SRS. You think that it is impossible that there are orthapedic surgeons who lobby the FDA, or have good old boys in high offices?

No, I think it’s quite possible.  However, what you’re not doing is giving me any idea who the hell they’d be or what they’d stand to gain by this delay.  Or any evidence that this actually happened. The FDA is not noted for great speed.  This is just another depressing example of that fact. This new technology is a major break though in the field of orthapedics. It is a time when the old are being weeded out and replaced by the new. It surprises you that the FDA is protecting them?

Who says they are?  Are you saying that this technology is so radical that existing orthopods can’t learn to use it, so they’re trying to keep it from being accepted?  Or what? Complex orthapedic surgery might become a thing of the past with this new technology.

Not all of it, certainly.  Some of it, probably. We’re not talking about some new asthma spray here, we are talking about a monumental change in a foundation of the medical industry. The *gluing* of broken bones! This massive corner stone of the med industry

Oh, please.  Repairing broken bones is a "massive cornerstone of the med industry?" is having a major upheaval, and I think the FDA provided a buffer to allow *certain people* time to adapt, to *restructure investments*.    I PAID THE PRICE.

Yeah, that’s what you think.  So far, you’re not giving me a reason to agree with you. Don’t insult me by saying it never would have been approved. I assure you it would have.

Not with a "massive cornerstone of the med industry" at stake. Don’t you REALIZE the MASSIVE FINANCIAL IMPLICATIONS of this? Why, they would KILL ANYONE WHO STOOD IN THEIR WAY. If you want to say the FDA takes too long, fine.  If the product could have been approved sooner, maybe it should have been. No, it’s not fine. You didn’t miss out on a treatement that would have cut your incapacitated time in half, and cut your recovery time by God only knows!

Oh, shut up.  I didn’t say I was happy that you had to undergo pain and suffering.  Bear in mind that unless this product had been approved the day it appeared, *someone* was going to be in your situation.  If the approval delay had been a week, anyone who broke a bone during that week could be sitting around, fulminating just the way you are.  Would that be justified? And while I’m sorry you couldn’t get the treatment here, I doubt this was intended to persecute you personally, and I’d like to see more evidence of corruption than your indignant assertion. What ever in the world gave you the impression that I felt like I was being singled out by the FDA? Wait a second, this is another one of your trick posts. The kind where you try to make me out to be something I am not.  

Sane?  Rational? If you are seriously interested in seeing more evidence of the corruption in the FDA I suggest you get a subscription to your local newspaper and read it *daily*. Did you happen to see today’s?

Yes, and there were no FDA horror stories in it.  Sorry.  Maybe tomorrow.   — David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.      "Few things give a greater feeling of security than a full gas tank."

Response:

It seems to me that the people who are responding to the thread "FDA too much power" are doing every thing they can to evade the actual issue by turning it into a mud slinging, male dominence contest. Why?   This internet newsgroup is a forum for the mind. A place to have intellectual debate about serious issues. It is a place to get questions answered by a variety of different people. Why is there this *need* by some people, to force their opinions on other people? If you are right about your position, then you should not have to resort to infantile name calling, no matter what your opponents say! I am not putting down doctors in any way. I am not supporting traditional medicine either. I do take supplements daily, and I go to the doctor when I am seriously injured. I started this thread because I was not able to recieve the treatment of my choice. I expect to have the freedom of my choice, because I live in a capitalist society. I do not think that any governmental organization should have any right to say what I can use as medicine, OR what I choose to use as medicine, regardless of what any one else thinks about that products safety or efficacy. If a company is selling or advertising fraudulently, that is for the courts of this great nation to decide. Personally, I think that certain people have over-stepped the lines of *independent testing* and have crossed over into the area of *control*. I am glad that we have a government that looks out for the welfare of it’s people, but I would like to avoid a governement that sacrifices personal freedoms for the standards of any certain group. I have a lot to say about this issue and would like to hear from both sides of the fence. I know that both supporters of ‘tradtional’ medicine and supporters of ‘orthadox’ medicine both have valid opinions that are based on history and facts. I am not interested in personal grudges or petty arguments, and I believe that this is not the place for those. Considering how the industry of medicine has been for the last 150 years, haven’t you all realized that we are all searching for the same goal?   The preservation of life and health! The truth must not be sacrificed because an idea has not met the standards of a certain class of people. All those who are interested in pursuing the truth have an obligation to stop the fools who would try to hide it or obscure it with the mud they throw. If you would like to state your opinon on this thread please stick with the subject, and please do it in a civilized manner. This is a very serious issue, and if I am wrong — prove it.

Response:

It seems to me that the people who are responding to the thread "FDA too much power" are doing every thing they can to evade the actual issue by turning it into a mud slinging, male dominence contest.

But the original start of the thread was blaming the FDA for not doing something that it doesn’t do, namely testing products.   — David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.      "Few things give a greater feeling of security than a full gas tank."

Response:

It seems to me that the people who are responding to the thread "FDA too much power" are doing every thing they can to evade the actual issue by turning it into a mud slinging, male dominence contest. But the original start of the thread was blaming the FDA for not doing something that it doesn’t do, namely testing products.

The para in question: Did Norian want to sell me their system? Yes of course, on their website they claimed that the FDA was too busy persecuting the tobacco barons to fund testing for their skeletal repair system. Norian claimed to have almost no side effects for their product.

Thanks for pointing out that typo Mr. Wright. What I should have said was "….the FDA was too busy persecuting the tobacco barons to fund *a review of the* testing for their skeletal repair system." I also should have said …The FDA was too busy protecting *certain people* from the pressures of the free market, and holding up progress! The fact of the matter, and what I think you are trying to avoid is, as of June 5, 1997, almost exactly a year before I broke my arm, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Scandinavia, Finland, the UK, Ireland (Ireland for God’s sake!) and Southern Germany were all legally able to use the Norian SRS.(Although a distribution agreement was not reached untill Dec 22, 1997 Still a year before US FDA approval.) (source: norian.com) The FDA didn’t approve it untill December 23, 1998! Norian is based in the United States. So why did  they have to go to other contries to sell their product! — Because the great, all-mighty FDA *dictated* that it must review the testing of Norian’s product, before the citizens of a so-called *capitalist* democracy, with a supposedly *free* market, could have the *legal* option of buying their product! A product that had already been tested by Norian (which is the extent of the FDA’s testing anyway), proven safe and effective, is far better than the previously available treatment, and the most important part: IT’S CHEAPER THAN THE PREVIOUS TREATMENT. (source: norian.com; bibliography, May 11, 1998 — The use of Norian SRS

Medic Alert Bracelet

Question:

The web site for Medic Alert is http://www.medicalert.org

Response:

i would like to find out what kind of seisure’s I have. I have been told frontal lobe and also focal seisure’s.I’m afraid to drive since I don’t know for sure if I still have seizure’s (I also have m.s. and hepititis c ).This is what happens I don’t remember anything sometimes for a whole day I’m still walking and talking’ but my family can tell something is wrong. Then I get real sleepy and sometimes stay that way for day’s. I take tegratol I’m not saying I’m still doing this. I wonder though as I still at times get real sleepy.                         This is what woories me am I still having seisure’s maybe in my sleep I don’t know. Sometimes I get a strange feeling like something is about to happen. Even if your not having full blown seizure’s can it effect your thinking? Since I’ve been on meds. I know that I drove the car to the store and don’t remember it also the whole day is a blank. Can anybody relate to these symtom’s? What kind of seizure disorder do you have? How will I ever know if I’m seizure free? Jeanie angels are with you                                      

Response: