Question:
John – Please set your newsreader to REPLY to the GROUP, not to the group PLUS email. The London Times article established that "the incidence of AIDS matched the relative numbers of vaccinations".(I respectfully disagree that this story was carried in the mainstream news media. The London Times is NOT MAINSTREAM? Has anyone informed them of this? I think we both know we are speaking about the corporate controlled media here in the U.S.
It’s a bit of a nuisance trawling through newspaper archives, because so few of them are on line, and most of them carge a hefty fee, but unless you have checked the mainstream USA media in that time period you can’t claim they ignored it. Which newspapers have you checked for lack of coverage? I was an active medical technologist during parts of the early AIDS epidemic, and newspapers were jumping on and publishing EVERY SCRAP of information, rumor, or speculation they encountered. I would be totally surprised if this was not picked up off the wires and run all across the USA. The establishment line was and still is that the AIDS virus arose from an African monkey virus that somehow jumped species.) Well, the establishment EVIDENCE so far has failed to show any other explanation. Viruses jumping the species barrier has happened before: parvovirus in dogs emerged in the 1970s as a serious epidemic disease. It is thought to be a mutaiton of the feline distemper virus … http://www.abap.org/parvo.htm I’ll admit that I don’t know much about parovirus except for a case that was diagnosed, but turned out to be linked to biological warfare experiments conducted on prison imates.(Do you think the time frame is a coincidence too?): http://www.whale.to/v/mycoplasma2.html
OH GOOD GRIEF!!!! Not that "Mycoplasma fermentans incognitus" dude again! He’s fixated on it as the cause for all diseases from CFS to Gulf War syndrome. SEE: Sasaki, T., Sasaki, Y., Kita, M., Suzuki, K., Watanabe, H. and Honda, M. : Evidence that Lo’s mycoplasma (Mycoplasma fermentans incognitus) is not a unique strain among mycoplasma fermentans strains. Journal of Clinical Microbiology, 2435-2440, 1992. What you are citing as "proof" is a letter to a congressman full of difficult to verify speculations (I can however, show that the "Dr James Watson" that the author of the letter links to some sort of mysterious shenanigans in the Texas Prisons is probably Dr. James Watson, Radiology, Ben Taub General Hospital and not THE Dr. James Watson of DNA fame. An infection like this in Texas … probable cause would be the recently identified relative of Lyme disease that is found in Texas and spread by tick bites. Borrellia somethingorother. Could have been an unusually severe parvo infection as well. For starters, parvovirus is a VIRUS, and a mycoplasma is a bacteria that lacks a cell wall … http://www.tulane.edu/~dmsander/WWW/335/Parvoviruses.html BTW – 70-90% of most human populations are seropositive for parvo B19 so it’s ubiquitous. And humans carry a lot of different mycoplasmas too. AIDS is known in Africa as "the slim disease" because of the way the victims waste away before they die. If you go into missionary accounts from the 1860s through the 1930s you can find references to people dying by wasting away, supposedly from a curse. This is a big example of disinformation.
So AIDS disinformation was planted in books that were published as long ago as the 1850s (I just checked my collection for publication dates) and 1860s? How very prescient of them, considering that viruses were unknown at that time, and bacteriology was in its infancy. I imagine these people thought they were cursed by the "vodoo" witch doctor. There was one in every tribe ya’ know.
They firmly believed it was black magic at that time, and many probably still do. The Scientific American(March) 1996 published, "The African Aids Epidemic" which states: " One frequently mentioned explanation for the severe epidemic in the Aids belt is that the virus originated here [Africa] and contiues to move outward from an epicenter of disease. But AIDS cases appeared in hospitals in Uganda and Rwanda at the same time they did in the West,[U.S.]
Yes, it is one of the miracles of modern transportation that epidemics can spread quickly from continent to continent. If you read "The Band Played On", it describes how one HIV infected individual, an airline employee, can be traced to the early and rapid spread of AIDS among gay men in the the USA. He was handsome, charming, and VERY promiscuous. and NO STORED HUMAN TISSUE SAMPLES TAKEN FROM AFRICA DURING THE 1970s ARE HIV-POSTIVE."
How many tissue samples were stored during the 1970s and later tested? Or are these samples that were collected earlier and taken out of Africa during the 1970s. (It was reported that a Bantu man from Kinshasa, Congo, whose name and health status was not recorded had a blood specimen taken and stored frozen in 1959. It wasclaimed to have fragments of HIV "closely related to a virus found in 4 chimpanzees". It was the only one out of 700 stored frozen Congo blood that tested positive for HIV. It was later found the specimen did not contain the HIV virus.)
When were the blood samples taken? Under what conditions were they stored? And WHICH test was used? "The nations in central Africa hardest hit by the AIDS epidemic where those in which experimental vaccines were administered. Which "experimental vaccines" are you talking about? "The genetic makeup of the AIDS virus does not exist in man or primates…numerous scientists have shown,the AIDS virus appears to contain several recognizable components from other viruses…vaccine EXPERIMENTS in which particles from different types of viruses were combined in humans, animals, or cell cultures, providing a plausible explanation for new "emerging viruses" in this region[central Africa].(3)(4)
WHICH experimental vaccines are you talking about? You just spout more conspiracy at me instead of answering the question. When I was in college in the late 1960s, studying epidemiology, one of the professors stated "something really nasty is going to come out of Africa because we’re not paying enough attention to it". And he pointed out the political instability, the potential for refugee movements, the pathetic educational and medical infrastructures, and the grinding poverty. And the utter lack of funding to investigate anything. Maybe your prof knew a little more than he let on.
He, like many epidemiologists around the world including those at the CDC, spotted a pattern (civil wars and refugee movements, economic forces and the completion of a highway from the interior to the coast) was developing that would facilitate movement of persons infected with previously regionally isolated diseases into urban areas. The same sort of conditions produced the great plague epidemics of the medieval times, and facilitated the spread of the Spanish Flu. But the politicians weren’t listening. Tsu Dho Nimh — "Imagine that all of the owners of the dogs crapping in your yard expect you to ask each of them _individually_ to stop it and you’ll begin to get an idea of why we don’t like ‘opt-out’." — Joe Newsreader in NANAE
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"The genetic makeup of the AIDS virus does not exist in man or primates…numerous scientists have shown,the AIDS virus appears to contain several recognizable components from other viruses…vaccine EXPERIMENTS in which particles from different types of viruses were combined in humans, animals, or cell cultures, providing a plausible explanation for new "emerging viruses" in this region[central Africa].(3)(4)
Total nonsense. HIV has now been matched very well with SIV variants found in chimpanzees. This whole "HIV is a mishmash of other viruses" thing is silly. This work was supported by USAID, the CDC, the WHO, Merck and Co., and the NCI."(1)(2) (1)Lederer R. Origin and spread of AIDS: Is the West responsible? (2)Horowitz L. Emerging Viruses Aids & Ebola: Nature, Accident or intentional?
Oh, yeah, Len Horowitz. Citing him will do wonders for your credibility. I noticed that all your references were from 1987 or before. I suppose everything since then is either disinformation or otherwise not helpful to the ol’ conspiracy theory? — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders."
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can understand that the secondary transmission of the disease may have been by prostitution, but it is the initial transmission we are investigating. The London Times article established that "the incidence of AIDS matched the relative numbers of vaccinations".(I respectfully disagree that this story was carried in the mainstream news media. The London Times is NOT MAINSTREAM? Has anyone informed them of this? I think we both know we are speaking about the corporate controlled media here in the U.S. The establishment line was and still is that the AIDS virus arose from an African monkey virus that somehow jumped species.) Well, the establishment EVIDENCE so far has failed to show any other explanation. Viruses jumping the species barrier has happened before: parvovirus in dogs emerged in the 1970s as a serious epidemic disease. It is thought to be a mutaiton of the feline distemper virus … http://www.abap.org/parvo.htm
I’ll admit that I don’t know much about parovirus except for a case that was diagnosed, but turned out to be linked to biological warfare experiments conducted on prison imates.(Do you think the time frame is a coincidence too?): http://www.whale.to/v/mycoplasma2.html AIDS is known in Africa as "the slim disease" because of the way the victims waste away before they die. If you go into missionary accounts from the 1860s through the 1930s you can find references to people dying by wasting away, supposedly from a curse.
This is a big example of disinformation. I imagine these people thought they were cursed by the "vodoo" witch doctor. There was one in every tribe ya’ know. The Scientific American(March) 1996 published, "The African Aids Epidemic" which states: " One frequently mentioned explanation for the severe epidemic in the Aids belt is that the virus originated here [Africa] and contiues to move outward from an epicenter of disease. But AIDS cases appeared in hospitals in Uganda and Rwanda at the same time they did in the West,[U.S.] and NO STORED HUMAN TISSUE SAMPLES TAKEN FROM AFRICA DURING THE 1970s ARE HIV-POSTIVE." (It was reported that a Bantu man from Kinshasa, Congo, whose name and health status was not recorded had a blood specimen taken and stored frozen in 1959. It was claimed to have fragments of HIV "closely related to a virus found in 4 chimpanzees". It was the only one out of 700 stored frozen Congo blood that tested positive for HIV. It was later found the specimen did not contain the HIV virus.) "The nations in central Africa hardest hit by the AIDS epidemic where those in which experimental vaccines were administered. Which "experimental vaccines" are you talking about?
"The genetic makeup of the AIDS virus does not exist in man or primates…numerous scientists have shown,the AIDS virus appears to contain several recognizable components from other viruses…vaccine EXPERIMENTS in which particles from different types of viruses were combined in humans, animals, or cell cultures, providing a plausible explanation for new "emerging viruses" in this region[central Africa].(3)(4) This work was supported by USAID, the CDC, the WHO, Merck and Co., and the NCI."(1)(2) (1)Lederer R. Origin and spread of AIDS: Is the West responsible? (2)Horowitz L. Emerging Viruses Aids & Ebola: Nature, Accident or intentional? When I was in college in the late 1960s, studying epidemiology, one of the professors stated "something really nasty is going to come out of Africa because we’re not paying enough attention to it". And he pointed out the political instability, the potential for refugee movements, the pathetic educational and medical infrastructures, and the grinding poverty. And the utter lack of funding to investigate anything.
Maybe your prof knew a little more than he let on. It was just about that time that " Kissinger was appointed national security advisor and ordered Defense Secretary Laird to reassess America’s biological weapons capabilites, and then discovered the option of viruses for covert operation operations"(5) So far, "Monkey B" virus, Lassa Fever, Ebola, and AIDS have emerged and I don’t think we’ve seen them all. Tsu Dho Nimh Here’s another interesting page:
http://aidsbiowar.com/ References (3)Gonda MA, Braun MJ, Carter SG, Kost TA Bess Jr JW, Arthur LO and VanDer Maaten MJ. Characterization and molecular clonig of a bovine lentivitus related to human immunodeficiency virus. NATURE 1987;330, 388-391 Mulder C. Human AIDS virus not from monkeys. NATURE 1988;333:396 See also Penny D. Origin of the AIDS virus. NATURE 1988;333494-495; See also Dr. Af. Rasmussen, Jr’s contribution in " The present and future of immunization: Discussion" In Pan American/World Health Organization., Op.cit., p.602 (4)International Symposium on Viral Hepatitis, Milan, Dec. 1974. Develop. biol. Standard. Vol. 30, Munich: S. Karger Basel, 1975 p. 375 (5)Horowitz L. EMERGING VIRUSES p.235
Response:
I can understand that the secondary transmission of the disease may have been by prostitution, but it is the initial transmission we are investigating. The London Times article established that "the incidence of AIDS matched the relative numbers of vaccinations".(I respectfully disagree that this story was carried in the mainstream news media.
The London Times is NOT MAINSTREAM? Has anyone informed them of this? The establishment line was and still is that the AIDS virus arose from an African monkey virus that somehow jumped species.)
Well, the establishment EVIDENCE so far has failed to show any other explanation. Viruses jumping the species barrier has happened before: parvovirus in dogs emerged in the 1970s as a serious epidemic disease. It is thought to be a mutaiton of the feline distemper virus … http://www.abap.org/parvo.htm AIDS is known in Africa as "the slim disease" because of the way the victims waste away before they die. If you go into missionary accounts from the 1860s through the 1930s you can find references to people dying by wasting away, supposedly from a curse. "The nations in central Africa hardest hit by the AIDS epidemic where those in which experimental vaccines were administered.
Which "experimental vaccines" are you talking about? This work was supported by USAID, the CDC, the WHO, Merck and Co., and the NCI."(1)(2) (1)Lederer R. Origin and spread of AIDS: Is the West responsible? (2)Horowitz L. Emerging Viruses Aids & Ebola: Nature, Accident or intentional?
When I was in college in the late 1960s, studying epidemiology, one of the professors stated "something really nasty is going to come out of Africa because we’re not paying enough attention to it". And he pointed out the political instability, the potential for refugee movements, the pathetic educational and medical infrastructures, and the grinding poverty. And the utter lack of funding to investigate anything. So far, "Monkey B" virus, Lassa Fever, Ebola, and AIDS have emerged and I don’t think we’ve seen them all. Tsu Dho Nimh It is my job to completely create professional technology in order that we may seamlessly supply competitive data.
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Hi guys! I was surfing the net and ran across an article that stated " A Hepatitis vaccine was given to several thousand male homosexuals in New York and San Francisco in 1978. Every one of the recipients contracted Aids." Does any one know about this? Read about it at. http://www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/the_aids_conspiracy/aids-us.html
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Hi guys! I was surfing the net and ran across an article that stated " A Hepatitis vaccine was given to several thousand male homosexuals in New York and San Francisco in 1978. Every one of the recipients contracted Aids." Does any one know about this? Read about it at. http://www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/the_aids_conspiracy/aids-us.html
It’s typical conspiracy theory crap, which is why I featured it on Quintessence of the Loon this week (there are dozens of mutually-contradictory AIDS conspiracy theories – I picked one at random). Not a lot was known about AIDS in 1979, but it was obvious that there was a high-risk group for hepatitis B – gay men. This group was an obvious choice for a vaccine test. What happened was that the behaviour which transmitted hep B also transmitted AIDS, and so a large proportion of the test group (not "every one") also contracted AIDS over the next few years. By the way, a quick look around the AIDS conspiracy sites gives figures of "every one" within an unspecified time (totse, above), 6.6% in two years and 66% in six years, and 30% in two years. That’s enough inconsistency to show that this is urban legend stuff. — Peter Bowditch It’s Kooks Day somewhere right now, sport. Celebrate at http://www.ratbags.com/loon/
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi guys! I was surfing the net and ran across an article that stated " A Hepatitis vaccine was given to several thousand male homosexuals in New York and San Francisco in 1978. Every one of the recipients contracted Aids." Does any one know about this? Read about it at. http://www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/the_aids_conspiracy/aids-us.html It’s typical conspiracy theory crap, which is why I featured it on Quintessence of the Loon this week (there are dozens of mutually-contradictory AIDS conspiracy theories – I picked one at random). Not a lot was known about AIDS in 1979, but it was obvious that there
Nothing was known about it in 1979. In fact, I don’t think even the predecessor term "GRID" had been coined that early. — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders."
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi guys! I was surfing the net and ran across an article that stated " A Hepatitis vaccine was given to several thousand male homosexuals in New York and San Francisco in 1978. Every one of the recipients contracted Aids." Does any one know about this? Read about it at. http://www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/the_aids_conspiracy/aids-us.html It’s typical conspiracy theory crap, which is why I featured it on Quintessence of the Loon this week (there are dozens of mutually-contradictory AIDS conspiracy theories – I picked one at random). Not a lot was known about AIDS in 1979, but it was obvious that there Nothing was known about it in 1979. In fact, I don’t think even the predecessor term "GRID" had been coined that early. — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders."
Hi again guys, Happy Independence Day! I can understand why not much was known about AIDs in 1979. The long incubation period would project the "official discovery" of the virus to 1984. I’m trying to be objective fellas but even allowing for intentional miss and disinformation, an alien from space could look at the conspiracy buffs argument and see facts and figures with dates and documents, and on the other side see the debunkers retort with, urban legend, loony crap. Which would you believe? Explain this: The Times of London, May 11, 1987 reported " AIDS may have been triggered by the mass vaccination campaign of the World Health Organization… The incidence of AIDS matches the relative numbers of vaccinations in Zaire, Zambia, Tanzania, Uganda, Rwanda, Malawi and Burundi. Brazil, the only South American country covered in the eradication campaign, has the highest incidence of AIDS in the region. About 14,000 Haitians were vaccinated while in Central Africa as part of a United Nations program." Surprisingly, or maybe not, the Times report was not picked up by Reuters, Associated Press, or United Press here in the U.S. http:www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/the_aids_conspiracy/hivconsp.html
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Explain this: The Times of London, May 11, 1987 In 1987 they were still trying to figure out where the heck it came from. The SIV/HIV cluster of viruses had not yet been discovered. reported " AIDS may have been MAY HAVE BEEN … that is their reporter trying to make sense out of a mass of data. triggered by the mass vaccination campaign of the World Health Organization… The incidence of AIDS matches the relative numbers of vaccinations in Zaire, Zambia, Tanzania, Uganda, Rwanda, Malawi and Burundi. Coincidence … there were equally large vaccination campaigns in other countries in Africa that did NOT coincide with AIDS infections. What those countries had in common is a lot of civil war, refugee movements, poverty (the leading spreader of AIDS is prostitution), and pathetic medical care. Brazil, the only South American country covered in the eradication campaign, has the highest incidence of AIDS in the region. And what was that? About 14,000 Haitians were vaccinated while in Central Africa as part of a United Nations program." And? ……. Surprisingly, or maybe not, the Times report was not picked up by Reuters, Associated Press, or United Press here in the U.S. Yes it was, and dismissed a year or so later when the data was double-checked. If you plot the areas of high HIV incidence (urban) versus the areas covered by the vaccination campaign (isolated rural) you see there is little overlap. The AIDS distribution has ALWAYS had the classic sexually transmitted disease distribution: highest in poor urban areas and spreading along major transportation routes. http://www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/the_aids_conspiracy/hivconsp.html Tsu Dho Nimh It is my job to completely create professional technology in order that we may seamlessly supply competitive data.
I can understand that the secondary transmission of the disease may have been by prostitution, but it is the initial transmission we are investigating. The London Times article established that "the incidence of AIDS matched the relative numbers of vaccinations".(I respectfully disagree that this story was carried in the mainstream news media. The establishment line was and still is that the AIDS virus arose from an African monkey virus that somehow jumped species.) "The nations in central Africa hardest hit by the AIDS epidemic where those in which experimental vaccines were administered. This work was supported by USAID, the CDC, the WHO, Merck and Co., and the NCI."(1)(2) (1)Lederer R. Origin and spread of AIDS: Is the West responsible? (2)Horowitz L. Emerging Viruses Aids & Ebola: Nature, Accident or intentional? http://www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/the_aids_conspiracy/aidsgate.html
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Oopps! Wrong URL! http://www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/the_aids_conspiracy/hivconsp.html
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Explain this: The Times of London, May 11, 1987
In 1987 they were still trying to figure out where the heck it came from. The SIV/HIV cluster of viruses had not yet been discovered. reported " AIDS may have been
MAY HAVE BEEN … that is their reporter trying to make sense out of a mass of data. triggered by the mass vaccination campaign of the World Health Organization… The incidence of AIDS matches the relative numbers of vaccinations in Zaire, Zambia, Tanzania, Uganda, Rwanda, Malawi and Burundi.
Coincidence … there were equally large vaccination campaigns in other countries in Africa that did NOT coincide with AIDS infections. What those countries had in common is a lot of civil war, refugee movements, poverty (the leading spreader of AIDS is prostitution), and pathetic medical care. Brazil, the only South American country covered in the eradication campaign, has the highest incidence of AIDS in the region.
And what was that? About 14,000 Haitians were vaccinated while in Central Africa as part of a United Nations program."
And? ……. Surprisingly, or maybe not, the Times report was not picked up by Reuters, Associated Press, or United Press here in the U.S.
Yes it was, and dismissed a year or so later when the data was double-checked. If you plot the areas of high HIV incidence (urban) versus the areas covered by the vaccination campaign (isolated rural) you see there is little overlap. The AIDS distribution has ALWAYS had the classic sexually transmitted disease distribution: highest in poor urban areas and spreading along major transportation routes. http:www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/the_aids_conspiracy/hivconsp.html
Tsu Dho Nimh It is my job to completely create professional technology in order that we may seamlessly supply competitive data.
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>honest it is 