Ping: religious discussionists
Question:
On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:33:46 -0500, "Paul2" <emperor…@nospam.rogers.com>, in message ID <E-adnbbU9LvMPAjeRVn…@rogers.com>, in the newsgroup alt.support.hepatitis-c wrote: >Shouldn’t we put the welfare of others first? >Let people respond to their OWN threads whether they want a spiritual >comforting or not. >Or do we censor others with our beliefs telling them we know whats best for >you?
Personally I’ve no problem with people believing as they wish. I try to incorporate "live and let live" into my life though that’s not always easy. I think the problem I sometimes have is that, especially on a text only medium like this, it can sometimes be hard for me to distinguish between someone expressing their beliefs in order to take comfort and someone expressing their beliefs in order to push them onto others. When someone says "I believe …………………….." are they really sometimes saying? "I believe………………….. and you should too". I don’t know. Only the writer of a post can say for certain. What I do know is that I had very extreme religious beliefs hammered into me for many years while I was at a very impressionable age. It caused me a lot of emotional (and spiritual) damage. Although I walked away from it all when I was 16, even in my early 30s it was a subject that kept cropping up during some lengthy psychotherapy. I trod a fine line between mental sickness and mental wellness and the garbage I was brought up on threatened to push me over the edge a long time after I walked away from it. It has taken a lot of water under the bridge to feel reasonably at ease with people of religious faith and, even now, on a bad day, the more bigotted religious extremists can provoke a bad reaction from me if they try to persuade me of the rightness of their beliefs. I was brought up with it drummed into me day after day after day. I still can remember my father’s words ringing in my ears about the ways his god was going to punish me as I walked out the door. It took me until only about 5 years ago to genuinely forgive my father. These days I don’t have too much trouble with people saying "God bless you etc". I even smile usually when people say they will pray for me (I figure that at least it makes THEM feel better so it’s not entirely wasted) 
> What I don’t tolerate so well is when someone preaches at me though. I certainly don’t have a problem with someone offering spiritual comfort on a hep newsgroup so long as they don’t go too overboard with it. I’ve come a long way just to get THAT far. Thanks for reading if you got this far. Although I seem to have responded to Paul2’s post, I could have responded like this to pretty much any post on this subject so it’s not addressed to anyone in particular. So it’s nothing personal Paul2, OK? — Paul Use the reply by email facility in your newsreader to send email
Response:
On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 14:04:38 -0500, "Paul2" <emperor…@nospam.rogers.com> wrote: >The only people who protest about Jesus being mentioned are people who have >religious intollerance. Its not me thats offensive, it’s your objection to >religious freedom that is the problem. >Name ONCE, go ahead, just once, when I said ANYONE was wrong because they >didn’t believe like me?
Are you dense? I cited the exact sentence you posted that I found insulting and hurtful. Here it is again: "It is not so profound though if you realize that at the core of most who shout the loudest about not mentioning Christ is the obviousness of a very hurt, and lonely spirit." Now what – are you pleading insanity, or that you didn’t really mean it, or that it only really applies to the one person you intended to hurt (Cody) and not actually to "most"? Or what? You can try to divert attention any way you like, but you posted that statement, and you’ll have to come up with a better explanation. You’re not the victim here. Thomas — To reach me, complete my last name in the address.
Response:
The only people who protest about Jesus being mentioned are people who have religious intollerance. Its not me thats offensive, it’s your objection to religious freedom that is the problem. Name ONCE, go ahead, just once, when I said ANYONE was wrong because they didn’t believe like me? Come on, lets get this out in the open. I have done NOTHING wrong. Not one of my statements is offensive unless you’re looking for offence. Go ahead and say I give Christians a bad name, although that saddens me that you would think it, it doesn’t mean you’re right. You don’t even know me and my family. You have no idea what we really believe in, you’ve just made up your mind that I’m like all Bible Thumpers and held a Kangaroo Court to convict me. I have not ONCE said you should believe in Jesus, or any other itteration of my belief. Again, show me where I have? Come on, show me. I have insulted no one. If I mention Christ in a sentence is that insulting? Then all Christians are such. Then that makes me like all the other Christians…We must be giving Jesus a bad name. Oh my, can’t you see the hypocrisy. You hold me accountable to be perfect, and yet you sit there slinging stones at me. Paul2 "Thomas Wagner" <t…@capecod.com> wrote in message
news:74nbp1hikossqtlm0kibcgla7icovd4lj6@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 05:29:54 -0500, "Paul2" > <emperor…@nospam.rogers.com> wrote: >>It is not so profound though if you realize that at the core of most who >>shout the loudest about not mentioning Christ is the obviousness of a very >>hurt, and lonely spirit. > It is statements like this that give "Christians" a bad name. It is > insulting and hurtful to assume that most of those not sharing your > belief must be hurt and lonely. It is an extreme sign of arrogance, and > completely contrary to what Jesus taught. Whether one shares the belief > in Jesus as the son of God or not (I don’t), his teachings are quite > clear, and they do not include the right to insult those who don’t > believe in him. > Thomas > — > To reach me, complete my last name in the address.
Response:
On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 05:29:54 -0500, "Paul2" <emperor…@nospam.rogers.com> wrote: >It is not so profound though if you realize that at the core of most who >shout the loudest about not mentioning Christ is the obviousness of a very >hurt, and lonely spirit.
It is statements like this that give "Christians" a bad name. It is insulting and hurtful to assume that most of those not sharing your belief must be hurt and lonely. It is an extreme sign of arrogance, and completely contrary to what Jesus taught. Whether one shares the belief in Jesus as the son of God or not (I don’t), his teachings are quite clear, and they do not include the right to insult those who don’t believe in him. Thomas — To reach me, complete my last name in the address.
Response:
No thanks. What a sham you are. Good thing I know people who actually live up to the religious values they profess or I’d have no hope whatsoever. In article <H9CdnUscuKm0MAjenZ2dnUVZ_sWdn…@rogers.com>, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - "Paul2" <emperor…@nospam.rogers.com> wrote: > Wow, just wow. Now you want an apology? > Holy Moly, talk about a run-a-way freight train. > If I offended you Gordo, I’m sorry. No sarcasm, honestly I don’t know how > you could be offeneded by the encouragment I offered someone else…..but so > be it… > ***note to self, remember how erratic your emotions are at times**** > Have a good one… > Paul2
Response:
Paul2 wrote: > Ok Cody, I think I’ll just take a rain-check on this thread.
What else can you do when you’ve been soundly refuted and can’t even address my points with anything but an ad hominem attack? > Thanks for all your concern you’ve shown for the well fare of others. And > standing vigilant against huge religious fanatics like myself….
"Praise the lord and pass the ammunition." > **cue the star spangled banner** > Once again alt.support.hep-c is safe from being open minded and tollerant of > other’s beliefs. > Paul2
Now you’re going to play the victim card. How original. Cody – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Michael Cody" <nos…@nuncaspam.comorg> wrote in message > news:rEhlf.118701$dr.83978@news.ono.com… >>Paul2 wrote: >>>Calling you on this one Cody: Print, copy, quote, anywhere I have >>>"pushed" my beliefs on ANYONE? >>>You sire, are looking for a religious contraversy, not me. >>>Go back to the thread this debate started. I answered someones post with >>>encouraging words the best I could find. >>>What did you do for him? >>>Just post a negative remark about religious people. >>>Now, you tell me how my post was wrong and yours was right. >>>Micheal, you’re a religious bigot, sorry, its the truth. >>>Paul2 >>More back pedaling and personal insults, eh? Why am I not surprised? >>Cody >>>"Michael Cody" <nos…@nuncaspam.comorg> wrote in message >>>news:3Nglf.128161$US.93294@news.ono.com… >>>>Paul2 wrote: >>>>>Always was and always is? Sounds like grasping at straws to me… >>>>>Very zen but still not science. Thus, FAITH. >>>>How about *logic*? Why does there have to be a beginning and an end? >>>>>Always was, without proof, is Faith…So you do believe in something >>>>>then? >>>>Of course, but it’s off topic on this group. If you really want to know >>>>what I believe in, do a Google search on this group. I promised the group >>>>I would no longer push my beliefs and I intend to stick to my promise. If >>>>only you could do the same … >>>>>To address the question, "why do bad things happen to good people" >>>>>debate would take a better forum than one of "me trying to prove" gods >>>>>mercy in a newsgroup. >>>>>Suffice it to say, sin, the evil nature that resides in all of us at one >>>>>time or another is the cause of misery, not God. >>>>>Now, if God chose to by-pass His mandate that we are all free-will >>>>>agents, then I suppose he could do away with ALL suffering and pain and >>>>>thus make us His little robots. But because free-will is alive and well >>>>>on planet Earth sin abounds. >>>>>But where Sin abounds, so does Mercy, and Grace. >>>>>I can find extreme evil on this Planet…………….I also can find >>>>>wonder working miracles……….Why do we choose to look at Evil as a >>>>>reason God can’t exsist? Rather than look at the beauty and know that He >>>>>does? >>>>>Paul2 >>>>"He" doesn’t exist. You are living an illusion. What you post is off >>>>topic. There hasn’t been one single documented case that a god has ever >>>>cleared anyone of the HepC virus. >>>>But, for grins, explain to me how your god fucked Mary and came up with >>>>the his bastard son, Jesus. Some say, btw, that Jesus married Magdelena, >>>>had a slew of kids, and died an old man in Kashmir. >>>>Cody >>>>>"Michael Cody" <nos…@nuncaspam.comorg> wrote in message >>>>>news:n1flf.118679$dr.70362@news.ono.com… >>>>>>Paul2 wrote: >>>>>>>Cody, anyone can come up with "reasons" not to believe in a divine >>>>>>>being >>>>>>>I wont try to answer your questions individually but what I will do is >>>>>>>pose my own. >>>>>>That’s because you can’t and you think by answering questions with >>>>>>questions is a cool debate trick but it isn’t. It’s back pedaling and >>>>>>only reveals that you have no answers. >>>>>>>Play along a bit would you? Humor me. >>>>>>>Lets just say that the belief of a Supreme Creator is true.(I know it >>>>>>>is) but lets just say He proved Himself to you, cody. >>>>>>>Now, to have created something so hugely intricate and mindblowing >>>>>>>would require a mind if you will, so vast and deep that we, being His >>>>>>>creation couldn’t hope to understand it. For example, a ant trying to >>>>>>>figure out what the heck are these flat objects with 5 things sticking >>>>>>>out of them are(human feet) >>>>>>>How could the created every hope to know everything, and understand >>>>>>>everything from a created perspective concerning his creator? >>>>>>>Can you explain to me why one twin 2 thousand miles from the other >>>>>>>does something and the other feels it? >>>>>>>Can you explain to me the wonder of a child forming in its mother’s >>>>>>>womb? >>>>>>>And yet you want to understand spiritually matters with a human mind? >>>>>>>Spritual things are discerned by the spirit. It’s a sense that is >>>>>>>rarely used by most. >>>>>>>If there is NO God..then YOU explain to me where things come from? IE: >>>>>>>If you believe in the BIG BANG theory, where did the matter come from >>>>>>>in the first place to create THE BIG BANG? >>>>>>>If everything has to have a genesis, where did the original one come >>>>>>>from? >>>>>>>If everything in the world developed by evolution, ie: cause and >>>>>>>effect….why have they found creatures in the blackest part of the >>>>>>>Ocean with beautiful colors and markings? Seems to me in the pitch >>>>>>>black there isn’t a need for camoflauge coloring.. >>>>>>>What makes a catapiller decide, "ok, now I want to be a butterfly, >>>>>>>I’ll just hand up side down on this twig, fall asleep and wake up a >>>>>>>totally different creature, able to fly".. >>>>>>>Like the catapillar, one day we ALL will fall asleep…….I believe >>>>>>>we wake up totally changed. >>>>>>>Paul2 >>>>>>Um, there is no beginning and there is no end. The universe always was >>>>>>and always will be. Nothing can be created or destroyed in this >>>>>>universe, only the form can change. Only in Hollywood are there >>>>>>endings. In real life, it goes on and on and never ends. When your >>>>>>current body wears out, you will be reborn into another one, a real >>>>>>one, not a spiritual one. >>>>>>Now, another question for you. If your god is so merciful, why are some >>>>>>people born blind, others in Bill Gates’ family, yet others in >>>>>>Zimababwe, afflicted with AIDS. Some people are born with the uncanny >>>>>>ability to play the piano or violin. Some people are born and die two >>>>>>minutes later. Do you believe that a capricious god is up there, >>>>>>cranking out destinies? >>>>>>Cody >>>>>>>"Michael Cody" <nos…@nuncaspam.comorg> wrote in message >>>>>>>news:T2elf.128139$US.77015@news.ono.com… >>>>>>>>Paul2 wrote: >>>>>>>>>I think the problem comes from people not realizing that at the core >>>>>>>>>of who we are is a spirit. We can argue, wrangle all day long here >>>>>>>>>about methods of medical treatment..we can spout off our dislike of >>>>>>>>>republican politicians and narrow minded conservatives…but no, oh >>>>>>>>>no, don’t mention about our inner being, that un-nutured part that >>>>>>>>>cries out for someone to care. >>>>>>>>>It is not so profound though if you realize that at the core of most >>>>>>>>>who shout the loudest about not mentioning Christ is the obviousness >>>>>>>>>of a very hurt, and lonely spirit. >>>>>>>>>So yeah, lets talk about IV drugs, after all thats what put most >>>>>>>>>here in this group anyway…Or lets discuss the latest recipe for >>>>>>>>>pot..Of which I too enquired…but oh no, don’t you dare bring your >>>>>>>>>positive, "God loves You" crap into this newsgroup. >>>>>>>>>We want our hurt left alone thank you very much. We’ll use chemicals >>>>>>>>>to ease our pain…They’re much less personal and inquiring. >>>>>>>>>Hep C is a disease………….. >>>>>>>>>Do you think there is only one cure for it? >>>>>>>>>If your God at the moment is putting all your eggs in the Treatment >>>>>>>>>basket, what kind of person would I be if I told you that was wrong? >>>>>>>>>If my hope is placed in a loving Higher Power, why does that negate >>>>>>>>>me >>>>>>>>>from talking about that here? >>>>>>>>>Doesn’t that seem like Religious Bigotry? >>>>>>>>>Isn’t that what the Church of old tried to do? >>>>>>>>>Isn’t that what spawned the Reformation by Martin Luther so many >>>>>>>>>hundred years ago? >>>>>>>>>No, I wont keep silent… >>>>>>>>>Paul2 >>>>>>>>OK, a few questions about the Spiritual Kingdom where good little >>>>>>>>xtians go after they die. >>>>>>>>By its very nature, you won’t have a body, only your spirit. This >>>>>>>>means you won’t be able to see, touch, hear, taste or talk. Do you >>>>>>>>really want that? >>>>>>>>Another question. If your god created the universe, where did he >>>>>>>>stand? >>>>>>>>One last question: millions of people have been killed in the name of >>>>>>>>your god. How can you justify supporting that? For example, the past >>>>>>>>and current crusades. The Spanish Inquistion. Sin tax. The KKK. >>>>>>>>Cody >>>>>>>>>"Waterspider" <waterspi…@moonlight.net> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>news:11pajelo37od1d5@corp.supernews.com… >>>>>>>>>>— Attention All ASH-C Atheist/Theist Members — >>>>>>>>>>Okay, here’s where we’re going to go to debate, duke it out, >>>>>>>>>>whatever on religion. No one there will be offended by yet another
… read more »
Response:
Paul2 wrote: > Calling you on this one Cody: Print, copy, quote, anywhere I have "pushed" > my beliefs on ANYONE? > You sire, are looking for a religious contraversy, not me. > Go back to the thread this debate started. I answered someones post with > encouraging words the best I could find. > What did you do for him? > Just post a negative remark about religious people. > Now, you tell me how my post was wrong and yours was right. > Micheal, you’re a religious bigot, sorry, its the truth. > Paul2
More back pedaling and personal insults, eh? Why am I not surprised? Cody – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Michael Cody" <nos…@nuncaspam.comorg> wrote in message > news:3Nglf.128161$US.93294@news.ono.com… >>Paul2 wrote: >>>Always was and always is? Sounds like grasping at straws to me… >>>Very zen but still not science. Thus, FAITH. >>How about *logic*? Why does there have to be a beginning and an end? >>>Always was, without proof, is Faith…So you do believe in something >>>then? >>Of course, but it’s off topic on this group. If you really want to know >>what I believe in, do a Google search on this group. I promised the group >>I would no longer push my beliefs and I intend to stick to my promise. If >>only you could do the same … >>>To address the question, "why do bad things happen to good people" debate >>>would take a better forum than one of "me trying to prove" gods mercy in >>>a newsgroup. >>>Suffice it to say, sin, the evil nature that resides in all of us at one >>>time or another is the cause of misery, not God. >>>Now, if God chose to by-pass His mandate that we are all free-will >>>agents, then I suppose he could do away with ALL suffering and pain and >>>thus make us His little robots. But because free-will is alive and well >>>on planet Earth sin abounds. >>>But where Sin abounds, so does Mercy, and Grace. >>>I can find extreme evil on this Planet…………….I also can find >>>wonder working miracles……….Why do we choose to look at Evil as a >>>reason God can’t exsist? Rather than look at the beauty and know that He >>>does? >>>Paul2 >>"He" doesn’t exist. You are living an illusion. What you post is off >>topic. There hasn’t been one single documented case that a god has ever >>cleared anyone of the HepC virus. >>But, for grins, explain to me how your god fucked Mary and came up with >>the his bastard son, Jesus. Some say, btw, that Jesus married Magdelena, >>had a slew of kids, and died an old man in Kashmir. >>Cody >>>"Michael Cody" <nos…@nuncaspam.comorg> wrote in message >>>news:n1flf.118679$dr.70362@news.ono.com… >>>>Paul2 wrote: >>>>>Cody, anyone can come up with "reasons" not to believe in a divine being >>>>>I wont try to answer your questions individually but what I will do is >>>>>pose my own. >>>>That’s because you can’t and you think by answering questions with >>>>questions is a cool debate trick but it isn’t. It’s back pedaling and >>>>only reveals that you have no answers. >>>>>Play along a bit would you? Humor me. >>>>>Lets just say that the belief of a Supreme Creator is true.(I know it >>>>>is) but lets just say He proved Himself to you, cody. >>>>>Now, to have created something so hugely intricate and mindblowing would >>>>>require a mind if you will, so vast and deep that we, being His creation >>>>>couldn’t hope to understand it. For example, a ant trying to figure out >>>>>what the heck are these flat objects with 5 things sticking out of them >>>>>are(human feet) >>>>>How could the created every hope to know everything, and understand >>>>>everything from a created perspective concerning his creator? >>>>>Can you explain to me why one twin 2 thousand miles from the other does >>>>>something and the other feels it? >>>>>Can you explain to me the wonder of a child forming in its mother’s >>>>>womb? >>>>>And yet you want to understand spiritually matters with a human mind? >>>>>Spritual things are discerned by the spirit. It’s a sense that is rarely >>>>>used by most. >>>>>If there is NO God..then YOU explain to me where things come from? IE: >>>>>If you believe in the BIG BANG theory, where did the matter come from in >>>>>the first place to create THE BIG BANG? >>>>>If everything has to have a genesis, where did the original one come >>>>>from? >>>>>If everything in the world developed by evolution, ie: cause and >>>>>effect….why have they found creatures in the blackest part of the >>>>>Ocean with beautiful colors and markings? Seems to me in the pitch black >>>>>there isn’t a need for camoflauge coloring.. >>>>>What makes a catapiller decide, "ok, now I want to be a butterfly, I’ll >>>>>just hand up side down on this twig, fall asleep and wake up a totally >>>>>different creature, able to fly".. >>>>>Like the catapillar, one day we ALL will fall asleep…….I believe we >>>>>wake up totally changed. >>>>>Paul2 >>>>Um, there is no beginning and there is no end. The universe always was >>>>and always will be. Nothing can be created or destroyed in this universe, >>>>only the form can change. Only in Hollywood are there endings. In real >>>>life, it goes on and on and never ends. When your current body wears out, >>>>you will be reborn into another one, a real one, not a spiritual one. >>>>Now, another question for you. If your god is so merciful, why are some >>>>people born blind, others in Bill Gates’ family, yet others in Zimababwe, >>>>afflicted with AIDS. Some people are born with the uncanny ability to >>>>play the piano or violin. Some people are born and die two minutes later. >>>>Do you believe that a capricious god is up there, cranking out destinies? >>>>Cody >>>>>"Michael Cody" <nos…@nuncaspam.comorg> wrote in message >>>>>news:T2elf.128139$US.77015@news.ono.com… >>>>>>Paul2 wrote: >>>>>>>I think the problem comes from people not realizing that at the core >>>>>>>of who we are is a spirit. We can argue, wrangle all day long here >>>>>>>about methods of medical treatment..we can spout off our dislike of >>>>>>>republican politicians and narrow minded conservatives…but no, oh >>>>>>>no, don’t mention about our inner being, that un-nutured part that >>>>>>>cries out for someone to care. >>>>>>>It is not so profound though if you realize that at the core of most >>>>>>>who shout the loudest about not mentioning Christ is the obviousness >>>>>>>of a very hurt, and lonely spirit. >>>>>>>So yeah, lets talk about IV drugs, after all thats what put most here >>>>>>>in this group anyway…Or lets discuss the latest recipe for pot..Of >>>>>>>which I too enquired…but oh no, don’t you dare bring your positive, >>>>>>>"God loves You" crap into this newsgroup. >>>>>>>We want our hurt left alone thank you very much. We’ll use chemicals >>>>>>>to ease our pain…They’re much less personal and inquiring. >>>>>>>Hep C is a disease………….. >>>>>>>Do you think there is only one cure for it? >>>>>>>If your God at the moment is putting all your eggs in the Treatment >>>>>>>basket, what kind of person would I be if I told you that was wrong? >>>>>>>If my hope is placed in a loving Higher Power, why does that negate me >>>>>>>from talking about that here? >>>>>>>Doesn’t that seem like Religious Bigotry? >>>>>>>Isn’t that what the Church of old tried to do? >>>>>>>Isn’t that what spawned the Reformation by Martin Luther so many >>>>>>>hundred years ago? >>>>>>>No, I wont keep silent… >>>>>>>Paul2 >>>>>>OK, a few questions about the Spiritual Kingdom where good little >>>>>>xtians go after they die. >>>>>>By its very nature, you won’t have a body, only your spirit. This means >>>>>>you won’t be able to see, touch, hear, taste or talk. Do you really >>>>>>want that? >>>>>>Another question. If your god created the universe, where did he stand? >>>>>>One last question: millions of people have been killed in the name of >>>>>>your god. How can you justify supporting that? For example, the past >>>>>>and current crusades. The Spanish Inquistion. Sin tax. The KKK. >>>>>>Cody >>>>>>>"Waterspider" <waterspi…@moonlight.net> wrote in message >>>>>>>news:11pajelo37od1d5@corp.supernews.com… >>>>>>>>— Attention All ASH-C Atheist/Theist Members — >>>>>>>>Okay, here’s where we’re going to go to debate, duke it out, whatever >>>>>>>>on religion. No one there will be offended by yet another thread on >>>>>>>>the topic. Christians need not feel in the minority there, because >>>>>>>>they’re not (it started out as an atheist board, but more and more >>>>>>>>Christians joined to talk some sense into the atheists or something >>>>>>>>like that. >>>>>>>>Anyway, see ya at: alt.atheism. Sounds like fun. >>>>>>>>Waterspider
Response:
Wow, just wow. Now you want an apology? Holy Moly, talk about a run-a-way freight train. If I offended you Gordo, I’m sorry. No sarcasm, honestly I don’t know how you could be offeneded by the encouragment I offered someone else…..but so be it… ***note to self, remember how erratic your emotions are at times**** Have a good one… Paul2 "Gordo Mondragon" <ga_mondra…@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ga_mondragon-496400.09441806122005@news-rdr-01-dummy.rdc-nyc.rr.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You made the statement that because I took issue with your making > blanket statements about religious truth that I have a very hurt and > lonely spirit. > That is offensive. You don’t know me. All you know is that I don’t > share your beliefs. That’s religious prejudice, making that assumption. > I’ve dealt with that prejudice all my life. And it is upsetting, and I > am offended. > This is a public newsgroup. If you want a private discussion, send > email. > If you had any sense of decency you’d apologize, but I don’t think your > beliefs include that. > Gordo > In article <KvednfFOUpLVPwjenZ2dnUVZ_t2dn…@rogers.com>, > "Paul2" <emperor…@nospam.rogers.com> wrote: >> Well, gordo my man, I’ll respond, certainly. >> One: No one asked you to look into Bobby’s thread. >> Two: Read what I wrote. Now, show where that is offensive. Please, tell >> me >> the line, words, phrase that is religiously offensive.. >> Three: I read things here all the time that I totally don’t agree with. >> Do I >> jump all over that person demanding they shut their mouth and preach >> their >> cure somewhere else? >> Do I even tell them I’m offended by what they say? nope. >> I never challenged ANYONE to believe what I believe. YOU decided to take >> offence because it best suited your arguement. >> But in reality gordo, no one is offended, are they? >> It just makes for more dramatic posting. >> Peace >> Paul2 >> "Gordo Mondragon" <ga_mondra…@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> news:ga_mondragon-E69284.09240306122005@news-rdr-01-dummy.rdc-nyc.rr.com… >> > You wrote: >> >> >> It is not so profound though if you realize that at the core of >> >> >> most >> >> >> who >> >> >> shout the loudest about not mentioning Christ is the obviousness of >> >> >> a >> >> >> very >> >> >> hurt, and lonely spirit. >> > I wrote: >> >> > OK – being really honest here – what you just wrote is *so* >> >> > insulting >> >> > to >> >> > people who don’t share your beliefs, how can you expect them not to >> >> > respond? >> > You going to own up to what you wrote or not? >> > G >> > In article <n8ydnW1pJYLnBgjenZ2dnUVZ_sOdn…@rogers.com>, >> > "Paul2" <emperor…@nospam.rogers.com> wrote: >> >> Read my last reply to Cody. >> >> I never started this religious debate. The ONLY thing I did was try to >> >> encourage a fellow believer. YOU looked in the thread and took >> >> offence..I >> >> never offered it to you. >> >> I confess my nead of God and His Son Jesus. I make no statements about >> >> Church, religion, or dogmata. >> >> I simply offer encouragement to those who seem to be seeking. >> >> It’s people like you and Cody who take it to the next level and try >> >> very >> >> hard to make it something it’s not. >> >> In the immortal words of Judith Ann…."And thats the truth" >> >> Paul2 >> >> "Gordo Mondragon" <ga_mondra…@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> >> news:ga_mondragon-8F02CD.07512406122005@news-rdr-01-dummy.rdc-nyc.rr.com… >> >> > In article <TdednaPOMZ-09QjeRVn…@rogers.com>, >> >> > "Paul2" <emperor…@nospam.rogers.com> wrote: >> >> > [...] >> >> >> It is not so profound though if you realize that at the core of >> >> >> most >> >> >> who >> >> >> shout the loudest about not mentioning Christ is the obviousness of >> >> >> a >> >> >> very >> >> >> hurt, and lonely spirit. >> >> > OK – being really honest here – what you just wrote is *so* >> >> > insulting >> >> > to >> >> > people who don’t share your beliefs, how can you expect them not to >> >> > respond? >> >> > You want the right to make statements like this but you don’t want >> >> > to >> >> > be >> >> > challenged on them, you don’t want to hear about how people live >> >> > full >> >> > complete happy lives without sharing your beliefs, and you certainly >> >> > don’t care about shoving people’s faces in something that for some >> >> > of >> >> > us >> >> > has been a source of pain, hatred, and just basically evil. >> >> > [...] >> >> >> If your God at the moment is putting all your eggs in the Treatment >> >> >> basket, >> >> >> what kind of person would I be if I told you that was wrong? >> >> > The kind of person you’re appearing to be right now – intolerant, >> >> > self-serving, and unable to accept the challenge to your beliefs >> >> > that >> >> > you can hold them without everyone else validating them for you. >> >> >> If my hope is placed in a loving Higher Power, why does that negate >> >> >> me >> >> >> from >> >> >> talking about that here? >> >> >> Doesn’t that seem like Religious Bigotry? >> >> >> Isn’t that what the Church of old tried to do? >> >> > And what many churches of today still try to do. >> >> > The problem with people like you is that talking about your beliefs >> >> > is >> >> > never enough. You need to denigrate people who don’t share them and >> >> > you >> >> > think that you have a right and a privilege to make statements that >> >> > you >> >> > don’t think other people have. You want to be agreed with or you >> >> > demand >> >> > silence. That kind of thinking has gotten the US into a terrible >> >> > state >> >> > and many of us believe that it’s important to speak up, to point out >> >> > that not everyone shares your beliefs and that the founders of this >> >> > country created a constitution what was meant to (among other >> >> > things) >> >> > protect people like me from people like you. >> >> > That’s the core of the problem. We’ve been down this road before >> >> > and I >> >> > don’t think you’re going to change. But please try to think that >> >> > your >> >> > beliefs don’t give you rights and privileges that those who don’t >> >> > share >> >> > them are denied. >> >> > G
Response:
Ok Cody, I think I’ll just take a rain-check on this thread. Thanks for all your concern you’ve shown for the well fare of others. And standing vigilant against huge religious fanatics like myself…. **cue the star spangled banner** Once again alt.support.hep-c is safe from being open minded and tollerant of other’s beliefs. Paul2 "Michael Cody" <nos…@nuncaspam.comorg> wrote in message
news:rEhlf.118701$dr.83978@news.ono.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Paul2 wrote: >> Calling you on this one Cody: Print, copy, quote, anywhere I have >> "pushed" my beliefs on ANYONE? >> You sire, are looking for a religious contraversy, not me. >> Go back to the thread this debate started. I answered someones post with >> encouraging words the best I could find. >> What did you do for him? >> Just post a negative remark about religious people. >> Now, you tell me how my post was wrong and yours was right. >> Micheal, you’re a religious bigot, sorry, its the truth. >> Paul2 > More back pedaling and personal insults, eh? Why am I not surprised? > Cody >> "Michael Cody" <nos…@nuncaspam.comorg> wrote in message >> news:3Nglf.128161$US.93294@news.ono.com… >>>Paul2 wrote: >>>>Always was and always is? Sounds like grasping at straws to me… >>>>Very zen but still not science. Thus, FAITH. >>>How about *logic*? Why does there have to be a beginning and an end? >>>>Always was, without proof, is Faith…So you do believe in something >>>>then? >>>Of course, but it’s off topic on this group. If you really want to know >>>what I believe in, do a Google search on this group. I promised the group >>>I would no longer push my beliefs and I intend to stick to my promise. If >>>only you could do the same … >>>>To address the question, "why do bad things happen to good people" >>>>debate would take a better forum than one of "me trying to prove" gods >>>>mercy in a newsgroup. >>>>Suffice it to say, sin, the evil nature that resides in all of us at one >>>>time or another is the cause of misery, not God. >>>>Now, if God chose to by-pass His mandate that we are all free-will >>>>agents, then I suppose he could do away with ALL suffering and pain and >>>>thus make us His little robots. But because free-will is alive and well >>>>on planet Earth sin abounds. >>>>But where Sin abounds, so does Mercy, and Grace. >>>>I can find extreme evil on this Planet…………….I also can find >>>>wonder working miracles……….Why do we choose to look at Evil as a >>>>reason God can’t exsist? Rather than look at the beauty and know that He >>>>does? >>>>Paul2 >>>"He" doesn’t exist. You are living an illusion. What you post is off >>>topic. There hasn’t been one single documented case that a god has ever >>>cleared anyone of the HepC virus. >>>But, for grins, explain to me how your god fucked Mary and came up with >>>the his bastard son, Jesus. Some say, btw, that Jesus married Magdelena, >>>had a slew of kids, and died an old man in Kashmir. >>>Cody >>>>"Michael Cody" <nos…@nuncaspam.comorg> wrote in message >>>>news:n1flf.118679$dr.70362@news.ono.com… >>>>>Paul2 wrote: >>>>>>Cody, anyone can come up with "reasons" not to believe in a divine >>>>>>being >>>>>>I wont try to answer your questions individually but what I will do is >>>>>>pose my own. >>>>>That’s because you can’t and you think by answering questions with >>>>>questions is a cool debate trick but it isn’t. It’s back pedaling and >>>>>only reveals that you have no answers. >>>>>>Play along a bit would you? Humor me. >>>>>>Lets just say that the belief of a Supreme Creator is true.(I know it >>>>>>is) but lets just say He proved Himself to you, cody. >>>>>>Now, to have created something so hugely intricate and mindblowing >>>>>>would require a mind if you will, so vast and deep that we, being His >>>>>>creation couldn’t hope to understand it. For example, a ant trying to >>>>>>figure out what the heck are these flat objects with 5 things sticking >>>>>>out of them are(human feet) >>>>>>How could the created every hope to know everything, and understand >>>>>>everything from a created perspective concerning his creator? >>>>>>Can you explain to me why one twin 2 thousand miles from the other >>>>>>does something and the other feels it? >>>>>>Can you explain to me the wonder of a child forming in its mother’s >>>>>>womb? >>>>>>And yet you want to understand spiritually matters with a human mind? >>>>>>Spritual things are discerned by the spirit. It’s a sense that is >>>>>>rarely used by most. >>>>>>If there is NO God..then YOU explain to me where things come from? IE: >>>>>>If you believe in the BIG BANG theory, where did the matter come from >>>>>>in the first place to create THE BIG BANG? >>>>>>If everything has to have a genesis, where did the original one come >>>>>>from? >>>>>>If everything in the world developed by evolution, ie: cause and >>>>>>effect….why have they found creatures in the blackest part of the >>>>>>Ocean with beautiful colors and markings? Seems to me in the pitch >>>>>>black there isn’t a need for camoflauge coloring.. >>>>>>What makes a catapiller decide, "ok, now I want to be a butterfly, >>>>>>I’ll just hand up side down on this twig, fall asleep and wake up a >>>>>>totally different creature, able to fly".. >>>>>>Like the catapillar, one day we ALL will fall asleep…….I believe >>>>>>we wake up totally changed. >>>>>>Paul2 >>>>>Um, there is no beginning and there is no end. The universe always was >>>>>and always will be. Nothing can be created or destroyed in this >>>>>universe, only the form can change. Only in Hollywood are there >>>>>endings. In real life, it goes on and on and never ends. When your >>>>>current body wears out, you will be reborn into another one, a real >>>>>one, not a spiritual one. >>>>>Now, another question for you. If your god is so merciful, why are some >>>>>people born blind, others in Bill Gates’ family, yet others in >>>>>Zimababwe, afflicted with AIDS. Some people are born with the uncanny >>>>>ability to play the piano or violin. Some people are born and die two >>>>>minutes later. Do you believe that a capricious god is up there, >>>>>cranking out destinies? >>>>>Cody >>>>>>"Michael Cody" <nos…@nuncaspam.comorg> wrote in message >>>>>>news:T2elf.128139$US.77015@news.ono.com… >>>>>>>Paul2 wrote: >>>>>>>>I think the problem comes from people not realizing that at the core >>>>>>>>of who we are is a spirit. We can argue, wrangle all day long here >>>>>>>>about methods of medical treatment..we can spout off our dislike of >>>>>>>>republican politicians and narrow minded conservatives…but no, oh >>>>>>>>no, don’t mention about our inner being, that un-nutured part that >>>>>>>>cries out for someone to care. >>>>>>>>It is not so profound though if you realize that at the core of most >>>>>>>>who shout the loudest about not mentioning Christ is the obviousness >>>>>>>>of a very hurt, and lonely spirit. >>>>>>>>So yeah, lets talk about IV drugs, after all thats what put most >>>>>>>>here in this group anyway…Or lets discuss the latest recipe for >>>>>>>>pot..Of which I too enquired…but oh no, don’t you dare bring your >>>>>>>>positive, "God loves You" crap into this newsgroup. >>>>>>>>We want our hurt left alone thank you very much. We’ll use chemicals >>>>>>>>to ease our pain…They’re much less personal and inquiring. >>>>>>>>Hep C is a disease………….. >>>>>>>>Do you think there is only one cure for it? >>>>>>>>If your God at the moment is putting all your eggs in the Treatment >>>>>>>>basket, what kind of person would I be if I told you that was wrong? >>>>>>>>If my hope is placed in a loving Higher Power, why does that negate >>>>>>>>me >>>>>>>>from talking about that here? >>>>>>>>Doesn’t that seem like Religious Bigotry? >>>>>>>>Isn’t that what the Church of old tried to do? >>>>>>>>Isn’t that what spawned the Reformation by Martin Luther so many >>>>>>>>hundred years ago? >>>>>>>>No, I wont keep silent… >>>>>>>>Paul2 >>>>>>>OK, a few questions about the Spiritual Kingdom where good little >>>>>>>xtians go after they die. >>>>>>>By its very nature, you won’t have a body, only your spirit. This >>>>>>>means you won’t be able to see, touch, hear, taste or talk. Do you >>>>>>>really want that? >>>>>>>Another question. If your god created the universe, where did he >>>>>>>stand? >>>>>>>One last question: millions of people have been killed in the name of >>>>>>>your god. How can you justify supporting that? For example, the past >>>>>>>and current crusades. The Spanish Inquistion. Sin tax. The KKK. >>>>>>>Cody >>>>>>>>"Waterspider" <waterspi…@moonlight.net> wrote in message >>>>>>>>news:11pajelo37od1d5@corp.supernews.com… >>>>>>>>>— Attention All ASH-C Atheist/Theist Members — >>>>>>>>>Okay, here’s where we’re going to go to debate, duke it out, >>>>>>>>>whatever on religion. No one there will be offended by yet another >>>>>>>>>thread on the topic. Christians need not feel in the minority >>>>>>>>>there, because they’re not (it started out as an atheist board, but >>>>>>>>>more and more Christians joined to talk some sense into the >>>>>>>>>atheists or something like that. >>>>>>>>>Anyway, see ya at: alt.atheism. Sounds like fun. >>>>>>>>>Waterspider
Response:
You made the statement that because I took issue with your making blanket statements about religious truth that I have a very hurt and lonely spirit. That is offensive. You don’t know me. All you know is that I don’t share your beliefs. That’s religious prejudice, making that assumption. I’ve dealt with that prejudice all my life. And it is upsetting, and I am offended. This is a public newsgroup. If you want a private discussion, send email. If you had any sense of decency you’d apologize, but I don’t think your beliefs include that. Gordo In article <KvednfFOUpLVPwjenZ2dnUVZ_t2dn…@rogers.com>, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - "Paul2" <emperor…@nospam.rogers.com> wrote: > Well, gordo my man, I’ll respond, certainly. > One: No one asked you to look into Bobby’s thread. > Two: Read what I wrote. Now, show where that is offensive. Please, tell me > the line, words, phrase that is religiously offensive.. > Three: I read things here all the time that I totally don’t agree with. Do I > jump all over that person demanding they shut their mouth and preach their > cure somewhere else? > Do I even tell them I’m offended by what they say? nope. > I never challenged ANYONE to believe what I believe. YOU decided to take > offence because it best suited your arguement. > But in reality gordo, no one is offended, are they? > It just makes for more dramatic posting. > Peace > Paul2 > "Gordo Mondragon" <ga_mondra…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:ga_mondragon-E69284.09240306122005@news-rdr-01-dummy.rdc-nyc.rr.com… > > You wrote: > >> >> It is not so profound though if you realize that at the core of most > >> >> who > >> >> shout the loudest about not mentioning Christ is the obviousness of a > >> >> very > >> >> hurt, and lonely spirit. > > I wrote: > >> > OK – being really honest here – what you just wrote is *so* insulting > >> > to > >> > people who don’t share your beliefs, how can you expect them not to > >> > respond? > > You going to own up to what you wrote or not? > > G > > In article <n8ydnW1pJYLnBgjenZ2dnUVZ_sOdn…@rogers.com>, > > "Paul2" <emperor…@nospam.rogers.com> wrote: > >> Read my last reply to Cody. > >> I never started this religious debate. The ONLY thing I did was try to > >> encourage a fellow believer. YOU looked in the thread and took offence..I > >> never offered it to you. > >> I confess my nead of God and His Son Jesus. I make no statements about > >> Church, religion, or dogmata. > >> I simply offer encouragement to those who seem to be seeking. > >> It’s people like you and Cody who take it to the next level and try very > >> hard to make it something it’s not. > >> In the immortal words of Judith Ann…."And thats the truth" > >> Paul2 > >> "Gordo Mondragon" <ga_mondra…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > >> news:ga_mondragon-8F02CD.07512406122005@news-rdr-01-dummy.rdc-nyc.rr.com… > >> > In article <TdednaPOMZ-09QjeRVn…@rogers.com>, > >> > "Paul2" <emperor…@nospam.rogers.com> wrote: > >> > [...] > >> >> It is not so profound though if you realize that at the core of most > >> >> who > >> >> shout the loudest about not mentioning Christ is the obviousness of a > >> >> very > >> >> hurt, and lonely spirit. > >> > OK – being really honest here – what you just wrote is *so* insulting > >> > to > >> > people who don’t share your beliefs, how can you expect them not to > >> > respond? > >> > You want the right to make statements like this but you don’t want to > >> > be > >> > challenged on them, you don’t want to hear about how people live full > >> > complete happy lives without sharing your beliefs, and you certainly > >> > don’t care about shoving people’s faces in something that for some of > >> > us > >> > has been a source of pain, hatred, and just basically evil. > >> > [...] > >> >> If your God at the moment is putting all your eggs in the Treatment > >> >> basket, > >> >> what kind of person would I be if I told you that was wrong? > >> > The kind of person you’re appearing to be right now – intolerant, > >> > self-serving, and unable to accept the challenge to your beliefs that > >> > you can hold them without everyone else validating them for you. > >> >> If my hope is placed in a loving Higher Power, why does that negate me > >> >> from > >> >> talking about that here? > >> >> Doesn’t that seem like Religious Bigotry? > >> >> Isn’t that what the Church of old tried to do? > >> > And what many churches of today still try to do. > >> > The problem with people like you is that talking about your beliefs is > >> > never enough. You need to denigrate people who don’t share them and > >> > you > >> > think that you have a right and a privilege to make statements that you > >> > don’t think other people have. You want to be agreed with or you > >> > demand > >> > silence. That kind of thinking has gotten the US into a terrible state > >> > and many of us believe that it’s important to speak up, to point out > >> > that not everyone shares your beliefs and that the founders of this > >> > country created a constitution what was meant to (among other things) > >> > protect people like me from people like you. > >> > That’s the core of the problem. We’ve been down this road before and I > >> > don’t think you’re going to change. But please try to think that your > >> > beliefs don’t give you rights and privileges that those who don’t share > >> > them are denied. > >> > G
Response:
Well, gordo my man, I’ll respond, certainly. One: No one asked you to look into Bobby’s thread. Two: Read what I wrote. Now, show where that is offensive. Please, tell me the line, words, phrase that is religiously offensive.. Three: I read things here all the time that I totally don’t agree with. Do I jump all over that person demanding they shut their mouth and preach their cure somewhere else? Do I even tell them I’m offended by what they say? nope. I never challenged ANYONE to believe what I believe. YOU decided to take offence because it best suited your arguement. But in reality gordo, no one is offended, are they? It just makes for more dramatic posting. Peace Paul2 "Gordo Mondragon" <ga_mondra…@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ga_mondragon-E69284.09240306122005@news-rdr-01-dummy.rdc-nyc.rr.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You wrote: >> >> It is not so profound though if you realize that at the core of most >> >> who >> >> shout the loudest about not mentioning Christ is the obviousness of a >> >> very >> >> hurt, and lonely spirit. > I wrote: >> > OK – being really honest here – what you just wrote is *so* insulting >> > to >> > people who don’t share your beliefs, how can you expect them not to >> > respond? > You going to own up to what you wrote or not? > G > In article <n8ydnW1pJYLnBgjenZ2dnUVZ_sOdn…@rogers.com>, > "Paul2" <emperor…@nospam.rogers.com> wrote: >> Read my last reply to Cody. >> I never started this religious debate. The ONLY thing I did was try to >> encourage a fellow believer. YOU looked in the thread and took offence..I >> never offered it to you. >> I confess my nead of God and His Son Jesus. I make no statements about >> Church, religion, or dogmata. >> I simply offer encouragement to those who seem to be seeking. >> It’s people like you and Cody who take it to the next level and try very >> hard to make it something it’s not. >> In the immortal words of Judith Ann…."And thats the truth" >> Paul2 >> "Gordo Mondragon" <ga_mondra…@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> news:ga_mondragon-8F02CD.07512406122005@news-rdr-01-dummy.rdc-nyc.rr.com… >> > In article <TdednaPOMZ-09QjeRVn…@rogers.com>, >> > "Paul2" <emperor…@nospam.rogers.com> wrote: >> > [...] >> >> It is not so profound though if you realize that at the core of most >> >> who >> >> shout the loudest about not mentioning Christ is the obviousness of a >> >> very >> >> hurt, and lonely spirit. >> > OK – being really honest here – what you just wrote is *so* insulting >> > to >> > people who don’t share your beliefs, how can you expect them not to >> > respond? >> > You want the right to make statements like this but you don’t want to >> > be >> > challenged on them, you don’t want to hear about how people live full >> > complete happy lives without sharing your beliefs, and you certainly >> > don’t care about shoving people’s faces in something that for some of >> > us >> > has been a source of pain, hatred, and just basically evil. >> > [...] >> >> If your God at the moment is putting all your eggs in the Treatment >> >> basket, >> >> what kind of person would I be if I told you that was wrong? >> > The kind of person you’re appearing to be right now – intolerant, >> > self-serving, and unable to accept the challenge to your beliefs that >> > you can hold them without everyone else validating them for you. >> >> If my hope is placed in a loving Higher Power, why does that negate me >> >> from >> >> talking about that here? >> >> Doesn’t that seem like Religious Bigotry? >> >> Isn’t that what the Church of old tried to do? >> > And what many churches of today still try to do. >> > The problem with people like you is that talking about your beliefs is >> > never enough. You need to denigrate people who don’t share them and >> > you >> > think that you have a right and a privilege to make statements that you >> > don’t think other people have. You want to be agreed with or you >> > demand >> > silence. That kind of thinking has gotten the US into a terrible state >> > and many of us believe that it’s important to speak up, to point out >> > that not everyone shares your beliefs and that the founders of this >> > country created a constitution what was meant to (among other things) >> > protect people like me from people like you. >> > That’s the core of the problem. We’ve been down this road before and I >> > don’t think you’re going to change. But please try to think that your >> > beliefs don’t give you rights and privileges that those who don’t share >> > them are denied. >> > G
Response:
In this specific case, it’s not those who are offering spiritual comfort that are being dogmatic and bombastic…It was the post of one person that made this into a contraversy. This is not the first time this person has attempted to make someones attempt at encouragment into a religious debate. But, this same person would rather wrangle about whether God exsisted or not, rather than see that it helps some through hard times. I still don’t understand the problem at all. I understand people don’t all believe the same as others..check I understand that it might even upset some….check I understand that one man’s path to recovery is different than anothers…check What I don’t understand is, why if you hate religious encouragment or conversation do you enter into the threads that have them as a topic? That can only mean that there are those who are trying to stir up contraversy. So, should we kow-tow to them? Isn’t that bullying? Please, go back to where this all started, Im sure you’ll see what I mean. Find one person encouraged by saying "don’t bring religion in here’ and now find one person that was encouraged by it. Shouldn’t we put the welfare of others first? Let people respond to their OWN threads whether they want a spiritual comforting or not. Or do we censor others with our beliefs telling them we know whats best for you? Let calm heads prevail………"Come, let us reason together"……… Paul2 "Sara" <puff…@wowway.com> wrote in message
news:w9KdnSC_OtGJ7QjenZ2dnUVZ_tGdnZ2d@wideopenwest.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Michael Cody" <nos…@nuncaspam.comorg> wrote in message > news:T2elf.128139$US.77015@news.ono.com… >> Paul2 wrote: >>> I think the problem comes from people not realizing that at the core of >>> who we are is a spirit. We can argue, wrangle all day long here about >>> methods of medical treatment..we can spout off our dislike of republican >>> politicians and narrow minded conservatives…but no, oh no, don’t >>> mention about our inner being, that un-nutured part that cries out for >>> someone to care. >>> It is not so profound though if you realize that at the core of most who >>> shout the loudest about not mentioning Christ is the obviousness of a >>> very hurt, and lonely spirit. >>> So yeah, lets talk about IV drugs, after all thats what put most here in >>> this group anyway…Or lets discuss the latest recipe for pot..Of which >>> I too enquired…but oh no, don’t you dare bring your positive, "God >>> loves You" crap into this newsgroup. >>> We want our hurt left alone thank you very much. We’ll use chemicals to >>> ease our pain…They’re much less personal and inquiring. >>> Hep C is a disease………….. >>> Do you think there is only one cure for it? >>> If your God at the moment is putting all your eggs in the Treatment >>> basket, what kind of person would I be if I told you that was wrong? >>> If my hope is placed in a loving Higher Power, why does that negate me >>> from talking about that here? >>> Doesn’t that seem like Religious Bigotry? >>> Isn’t that what the Church of old tried to do? >>> Isn’t that what spawned the Reformation by Martin Luther so many hundred >>> years ago? >>> No, I wont keep silent… >>> Paul2 >> OK, a few questions about the Spiritual Kingdom where good little xtians >> go after they die. >> By its very nature, you won’t have a body, only your spirit. This means >> you won’t be able to see, touch, hear, taste or talk. Do you really want >> that? >> Another question. If your god created the universe, where did he stand? >> One last question: millions of people have been killed in the name of >> your god. How can you justify supporting that? For example, the past and >> current crusades. The Spanish Inquistion. Sin tax. The KKK. >> Cody >>> "Waterspider" <waterspi…@moonlight.net> wrote in message >>> news:11pajelo37od1d5@corp.supernews.com… >>>>— Attention All ASH-C Atheist/Theist Members — >>>>Okay, here’s where we’re going to go to debate, duke it out, whatever on >>>>religion. No one there will be offended by yet another thread on the >>>>topic. Christians need not feel in the minority there, because they’re >>>>not (it started out as an atheist board, but more and more Christians >>>>joined to talk some sense into the atheists or something like that. >>>>Anyway, see ya at: alt.atheism. Sounds like fun. >>>>Waterspider > Good idea, Waterpider (one of these days I’ll remember it’s ONE word!)… > another venue for this discussion seems a reasonable solution to me. > To be honest, I get a little nervous when folks start getting semi > fanatical about their beliefs. I’m not looking for more excitement in my > life right now, I come to this newsgroup to learn about a disease that I > just found out I have, and to get some support in my fight against it. > Religion is such a highly personal subject. I think everyone is entitled > to think and/or believe whatever they want. I really dislike when folks > get pushy or hostile about the subject. It’s a ‘no-win’ argument, there > is no right or wrong. you believe what you believe, and no one is going > to change your mind by calling you names or telling you how stupid what > you believe is. > I don’t mind discussion of religion per se… if it is general as in ‘I > find strength in my beliefs’…. or ‘ I feel I am stronger because I don’t > waste my energy on something that can’t be proven’, etc. But it is > stressful and upsetting to me when folks start bickering over any subject, > and especially this one. > just my two cents worth (if it even makes sense — still on the ‘out to > lunch’ side here lol) and I am so new to this group that I’m not familiar > with the history (which obviously there is quite a history relating to > these discussions!) > but, like any family, I hope we can let each other be what and who we are, > accept any differences, and be a strong and supportive entity to work > together to defeat that dreaded dragon! > Sara
Response:
You wrote: > >> It is not so profound though if you realize that at the core of most who > >> shout the loudest about not mentioning Christ is the obviousness of a > >> very > >> hurt, and lonely spirit. I wrote: > > OK – being really honest here – what you just wrote is *so* insulting to > > people who don’t share your beliefs, how can you expect them not to > > respond?
You going to own up to what you wrote or not? G In article <n8ydnW1pJYLnBgjenZ2dnUVZ_sOdn…@rogers.com>, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - "Paul2" <emperor…@nospam.rogers.com> wrote: > Read my last reply to Cody. > I never started this religious debate. The ONLY thing I did was try to > encourage a fellow believer. YOU looked in the thread and took offence..I > never offered it to you. > I confess my nead of God and His Son Jesus. I make no statements about > Church, religion, or dogmata. > I simply offer encouragement to those who seem to be seeking. > It’s people like you and Cody who take it to the next level and try very > hard to make it something it’s not. > In the immortal words of Judith Ann…."And thats the truth" > Paul2 > "Gordo Mondragon" <ga_mondra…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:ga_mondragon-8F02CD.07512406122005@news-rdr-01-dummy.rdc-nyc.rr.com… > > In article <TdednaPOMZ-09QjeRVn…@rogers.com>, > > "Paul2" <emperor…@nospam.rogers.com> wrote: > > [...] > >> It is not so profound though if you realize that at the core of most who > >> shout the loudest about not mentioning Christ is the obviousness of a > >> very > >> hurt, and lonely spirit. > > OK – being really honest here – what you just wrote is *so* insulting to > > people who don’t share your beliefs, how can you expect them not to > > respond? > > You want the right to make statements like this but you don’t want to be > > challenged on them, you don’t want to hear about how people live full > > complete happy lives without sharing your beliefs, and you certainly > > don’t care about shoving people’s faces in something that for some of us > > has been a source of pain, hatred, and just basically evil. > > [...] > >> If your God at the moment is putting all your eggs in the Treatment > >> basket, > >> what kind of person would I be if I told you that was wrong? > > The kind of person you’re appearing to be right now – intolerant, > > self-serving, and unable to accept the challenge to your beliefs that > > you can hold them without everyone else validating them for you. > >> If my hope is placed in a loving Higher Power, why does that negate me > >> from > >> talking about that here? > >> Doesn’t that seem like Religious Bigotry? > >> Isn’t that what the Church of old tried to do? > > And what many churches of today still try to do. > > The problem with people like you is that talking about your beliefs is > > never enough. You need to denigrate people who don’t share them and you > > think that you have a right and a privilege to make statements that you > > don’t think other people have. You want to be agreed with or you demand > > silence. That kind of thinking has gotten the US into a terrible state > > and many of us believe that it’s important to speak up, to point out > > that not everyone shares your beliefs and that the founders of this > > country created a constitution what was meant to (among other things) > > protect people like me from people like you. > > That’s the core of the problem. We’ve been down this road before and I > > don’t think you’re going to change. But please try to think that your > > beliefs don’t give you rights and privileges that those who don’t share > > them are denied. > > G
Response:
Read my last reply to Cody. I never started this religious debate. The ONLY thing I did was try to encourage a fellow believer. YOU looked in the thread and took offence..I never offered it to you. I confess my nead of God and His Son Jesus. I make no statements about Church, religion, or dogmata. I simply offer encouragement to those who seem to be seeking. It’s people like you and Cody who take it to the next level and try very hard to make it something it’s not. In the immortal words of Judith Ann…."And thats the truth" Paul2 "Gordo Mondragon" <ga_mondra…@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ga_mondragon-8F02CD.07512406122005@news-rdr-01-dummy.rdc-nyc.rr.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <TdednaPOMZ-09QjeRVn…@rogers.com>, > "Paul2" <emperor…@nospam.rogers.com> wrote: > [...] >> It is not so profound though if you realize that at the core of most who >> shout the loudest about not mentioning Christ is the obviousness of a >> very >> hurt, and lonely spirit. > OK – being really honest here – what you just wrote is *so* insulting to > people who don’t share your beliefs, how can you expect them not to > respond? > You want the right to make statements like this but you don’t want to be > challenged on them, you don’t want to hear about how people live full > complete happy lives without sharing your beliefs, and you certainly > don’t care about shoving people’s faces in something that for some of us > has been a source of pain, hatred, and just basically evil. > [...] >> If your God at the moment is putting all your eggs in the Treatment >> basket, >> what kind of person would I be if I told you that was wrong? > The kind of person you’re appearing to be right now – intolerant, > self-serving, and unable to accept the challenge to your beliefs that > you can hold them without everyone else validating them for you. >> If my hope is placed in a loving Higher Power, why does that negate me >> from >> talking about that here? >> Doesn’t that seem like Religious Bigotry? >> Isn’t that what the Church of old tried to do? > And what many churches of today still try to do. > The problem with people like you is that talking about your beliefs is > never enough. You need to denigrate people who don’t share them and you > think that you have a right and a privilege to make statements that you > don’t think other people have. You want to be agreed with or you demand > silence. That kind of thinking has gotten the US into a terrible state > and many of us believe that it’s important to speak up, to point out > that not everyone shares your beliefs and that the founders of this > country created a constitution what was meant to (among other things) > protect people like me from people like you. > That’s the core of the problem. We’ve been down this road before and I > don’t think you’re going to change. But please try to think that your > beliefs don’t give you rights and privileges that those who don’t share > them are denied. > G
Response:
Calling you on this one Cody: Print, copy, quote, anywhere I have "pushed" my beliefs on ANYONE? You sire, are looking for a religious contraversy, not me. Go back to the thread this debate started. I answered someones post with encouraging words the best I could find. What did you do for him? Just post a negative remark about religious people. Now, you tell me how my post was wrong and yours was right. Micheal, you’re a religious bigot, sorry, its the truth. Paul2 "Michael Cody" <nos…@nuncaspam.comorg> wrote in message
news:3Nglf.128161$US.93294@news.ono.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Paul2 wrote: >> Always was and always is? Sounds like grasping at straws to me… >> Very zen but still not science. Thus, FAITH. > How about *logic*? Why does there have to be a beginning and an end? >> Always was, without proof, is Faith…So you do believe in something >> then? > Of course, but it’s off topic on this group. If you really want to know > what I believe in, do a Google search on this group. I promised the group > I would no longer push my beliefs and I intend to stick to my promise. If > only you could do the same … >> To address the question, "why do bad things happen to good people" debate >> would take a better forum than one of "me trying to prove" gods mercy in >> a newsgroup. >> Suffice it to say, sin, the evil nature that resides in all of us at one >> time or another is the cause of misery, not God. >> Now, if God chose to by-pass His mandate that we are all free-will >> agents, then I suppose he could do away with ALL suffering and pain and >> thus make us His little robots. But because free-will is alive and well >> on planet Earth sin abounds. >> But where Sin abounds, so does Mercy, and Grace. >> I can find extreme evil on this Planet…………….I also can find >> wonder working miracles……….Why do we choose to look at Evil as a >> reason God can’t exsist? Rather than look at the beauty and know that He >> does? >> Paul2 > "He" doesn’t exist. You are living an illusion. What you post is off > topic. There hasn’t been one single documented case that a god has ever > cleared anyone of the HepC virus. > But, for grins, explain to me how your god fucked Mary and came up with > the his bastard son, Jesus. Some say, btw, that Jesus married Magdelena, > had a slew of kids, and died an old man in Kashmir. > Cody >> "Michael Cody" <nos…@nuncaspam.comorg> wrote in message >> news:n1flf.118679$dr.70362@news.ono.com… >>>Paul2 wrote: >>>>Cody, anyone can come up with "reasons" not to believe in a divine being >>>>I wont try to answer your questions individually but what I will do is >>>>pose my own. >>>That’s because you can’t and you think by answering questions with >>>questions is a cool debate trick but it isn’t. It’s back pedaling and >>>only reveals that you have no answers. >>>>Play along a bit would you? Humor me. >>>>Lets just say that the belief of a Supreme Creator is true.(I know it >>>>is) but lets just say He proved Himself to you, cody. >>>>Now, to have created something so hugely intricate and mindblowing would >>>>require a mind if you will, so vast and deep that we, being His creation >>>>couldn’t hope to understand it. For example, a ant trying to figure out >>>>what the heck are these flat objects with 5 things sticking out of them >>>>are(human feet) >>>>How could the created every hope to know everything, and understand >>>>everything from a created perspective concerning his creator? >>>>Can you explain to me why one twin 2 thousand miles from the other does >>>>something and the other feels it? >>>>Can you explain to me the wonder of a child forming in its mother’s >>>>womb? >>>>And yet you want to understand spiritually matters with a human mind? >>>>Spritual things are discerned by the spirit. It’s a sense that is rarely >>>>used by most. >>>>If there is NO God..then YOU explain to me where things come from? IE: >>>>If you believe in the BIG BANG theory, where did the matter come from in >>>>the first place to create THE BIG BANG? >>>>If everything has to have a genesis, where did the original one come >>>>from? >>>>If everything in the world developed by evolution, ie: cause and >>>>effect….why have they found creatures in the blackest part of the >>>>Ocean with beautiful colors and markings? Seems to me in the pitch black >>>>there isn’t a need for camoflauge coloring.. >>>>What makes a catapiller decide, "ok, now I want to be a butterfly, I’ll >>>>just hand up side down on this twig, fall asleep and wake up a totally >>>>different creature, able to fly".. >>>>Like the catapillar, one day we ALL will fall asleep…….I believe we >>>>wake up totally changed. >>>>Paul2 >>>Um, there is no beginning and there is no end. The universe always was >>>and always will be. Nothing can be created or destroyed in this universe, >>>only the form can change. Only in Hollywood are there endings. In real >>>life, it goes on and on and never ends. When your current body wears out, >>>you will be reborn into another one, a real one, not a spiritual one. >>>Now, another question for you. If your god is so merciful, why are some >>>people born blind, others in Bill Gates’ family, yet others in Zimababwe, >>>afflicted with AIDS. Some people are born with the uncanny ability to >>>play the piano or violin. Some people are born and die two minutes later. >>>Do you believe that a capricious god is up there, cranking out destinies? >>>Cody >>>>"Michael Cody" <nos…@nuncaspam.comorg> wrote in message >>>>news:T2elf.128139$US.77015@news.ono.com… >>>>>Paul2 wrote: >>>>>>I think the problem comes from people not realizing that at the core >>>>>>of who we are is a spirit. We can argue, wrangle all day long here >>>>>>about methods of medical treatment..we can spout off our dislike of >>>>>>republican politicians and narrow minded conservatives…but no, oh >>>>>>no, don’t mention about our inner being, that un-nutured part that >>>>>>cries out for someone to care. >>>>>>It is not so profound though if you realize that at the core of most >>>>>>who shout the loudest about not mentioning Christ is the obviousness >>>>>>of a very hurt, and lonely spirit. >>>>>>So yeah, lets talk about IV drugs, after all thats what put most here >>>>>>in this group anyway…Or lets discuss the latest recipe for pot..Of >>>>>>which I too enquired…but oh no, don’t you dare bring your positive, >>>>>>"God loves You" crap into this newsgroup. >>>>>>We want our hurt left alone thank you very much. We’ll use chemicals >>>>>>to ease our pain…They’re much less personal and inquiring. >>>>>>Hep C is a disease………….. >>>>>>Do you think there is only one cure for it? >>>>>>If your God at the moment is putting all your eggs in the Treatment >>>>>>basket, what kind of person would I be if I told you that was wrong? >>>>>>If my hope is placed in a loving Higher Power, why does that negate me >>>>>>from talking about that here? >>>>>>Doesn’t that seem like Religious Bigotry? >>>>>>Isn’t that what the Church of old tried to do? >>>>>>Isn’t that what spawned the Reformation by Martin Luther so many >>>>>>hundred years ago? >>>>>>No, I wont keep silent… >>>>>>Paul2 >>>>>OK, a few questions about the Spiritual Kingdom where good little >>>>>xtians go after they die. >>>>>By its very nature, you won’t have a body, only your spirit. This means >>>>>you won’t be able to see, touch, hear, taste or talk. Do you really >>>>>want that? >>>>>Another question. If your god created the universe, where did he stand? >>>>>One last question: millions of people have been killed in the name of >>>>>your god. How can you justify supporting that? For example, the past >>>>>and current crusades. The Spanish Inquistion. Sin tax. The KKK. >>>>>Cody >>>>>>"Waterspider" <waterspi…@moonlight.net> wrote in message >>>>>>news:11pajelo37od1d5@corp.supernews.com… >>>>>>>— Attention All ASH-C Atheist/Theist Members — >>>>>>>Okay, here’s where we’re going to go to debate, duke it out, whatever >>>>>>>on religion. No one there will be offended by yet another thread on >>>>>>>the topic. Christians need not feel in the minority there, because >>>>>>>they’re not (it started out as an atheist board, but more and more >>>>>>>Christians joined to talk some sense into the atheists or something >>>>>>>like that. >>>>>>>Anyway, see ya at: alt.atheism. Sounds like fun. >>>>>>>Waterspider
Response:
Re: religious discussionists Group: alt.support.hepatitis-c Date: Tue, Dec 6, 2005, 6:03am (CST+1) From: puff…@wowway.com (Sara) "Michael Cody" <nos…@nuncaspam.comorg> wrote in message
news:T2elf.128139$US.77015@news.ono.com… Paul2 wrote:
I think the problem comes from people not realizing that at the core of who we are is a spirit. We can argue, wrangle all day long here about methods of medical treatment..we can spout off our dislike of republican politicians and narrow minded conservatives…but no, oh no, don’t mention about our inner being, that un-nutured part that cries out for someone to care. It is not so profound though if you realize that at the core of most who shout the loudest about not mentioning Christ is the obviousness of a very hurt, and lonely spirit. So yeah, lets talk about IV drugs, after all thats what put most here in this group anyway…Or lets discuss the latest recipe for pot..Of which I too enquired…but oh no, don’t you dare bring your positive, "God loves You" crap into this newsgroup. We want our hurt left alone thank you very much. We’ll use chemicals to ease our pain…They’re much less personal and inquiring. Hep C is a disease………….. Do you think there is only one cure for it? If your God at the moment is putting all your eggs in the Treatment basket, what kind of person would I be if I told you that was wrong? If my hope is placed in a loving Higher Power, why does that negate me from talking about that here? Doesn’t that seem like Religious Bigotry? Isn’t that what the Church of old tried to do? Isn’t that what spawned the Reformation by Martin Luther so many hundred years ago? No, I wont keep silent… Paul2 OK, a few questions about the Spiritual Kingdom where good little xtians go after they die. By its very nature, you won’t have a body, only your spirit. This means you won’t be able to see, touch, hear, taste or talk. Do you really want that? Another question. If your god created the universe, where did he stand? One last question: millions of people have been killed in the name of your god. How can you justify supporting that? For example, the past and current crusades. The Spanish Inquistion. Sin tax. The KKK. Cody "Waterspider" <waterspi…@moonlight.net> wrote in message
news:11pajelo37od1d5@corp.supernews.com… — Attention All ASH-C Atheist/Theist Members — Okay, here’s where we’re going to go to debate, duke it out, whatever on religion. No one there will be offended by yet another thread on the topic. Christians need not feel in the minority there, because they’re not (it started out as an atheist board, but more and more Christians joined to talk some sense into the atheists or something like that. Anyway, see ya at: alt.atheism. Sounds like fun. Waterspider Good idea, Waterpider (one of these days I’ll remember it’s ONE word!)… another venue for this discussion seems a reasonable solution to me. To be honest, I get a little nervous when folks start getting semi fanatical about their beliefs. I’m not looking for more excitement in my life right now, I come to this newsgroup to learn about a disease that I just found out I have, and to get some support in my fight against it. Religion is such a highly personal subject. I think everyone is entitled to think and/or believe whatever they want. I really dislike when folks get pushy or hostile about the subject. It’s a ‘no-win’ argument, there is no right or wrong. you believe what you believe, and no one is going to change your mind by calling you names or telling you how stupid what you believe is. I don’t mind discussion of religion per se… if it is general as in ‘I find strength in my beliefs’…. or ‘ I feel I am stronger because I don’t waste my energy on something that can’t be proven’, etc.
>in my humble opinion, i would recommend at everyone for at least trying it a couple of times. >our western views on medicine and illness are very different from theirs. the two ways of working >are in no way comparable. you have to try it to understand it. >and then decide if you’d call it snake oil or not. >i was so impressed with the results i started to study it. and since i have energy and a clear >head again i am able to do so. >the chinese is hard though, pfew. and gosh, people have SO many meridians in their body, lol. >now i really have to get back to my study books. >(besides, the person who wrote the post to this group never claimed it cured him of his hep. >he clearly said he functions normally again WITH hepC. > btw; my alt and ast are normal as well since i started doing it, my western doctor has my blood >drawn monthly to follow me up on this thing. before they always were slightly elevated. but at most >he is amazed about the results it gives for the pains and chronic fatigue, which disabled me to >function properly and oh that damn damn brain frog, that’s history as well.) >(end rant) 